10's on an acoustic

ChrisMusic

Alnico said:

I've just tried 12's on my 12 string and it's wrecked my fingers and my wrist.

The action need to be lowered a bit, i know that but even so it's just too much.

You may well have higher action with these strings as the extra tension will have probably put more bow in the neck if you haven't adjusted the truss rod to compensate.

Why not try down tuning it to lower the tension for the sake of your fingers, the neck and the action, at least it should keep you playing till the weekend.  D standard would probably be a good start, that's what mine is tuned to anyhow. See what that feels, and sounds like, you can always go a bit further is you want...    HTH  

Alnico

@ChrisMusic

I did try that and it did seem easier. That's kind of what told me i needed a lower gauge. (And it sounded really cool in dropped 'D')

The action went stupid high when i tuned up the 12's so i adjusted the truss rod to suit them which also felt way tighter than i would ever want to tighten one. The whole thing added up to.........This is wrong.

The guitar sounds bloody incredible but it's all too tight, high and finger shreddy so my comment about getting to know the guitar properly is exactly this. I have now seen one end of the scale and i need to adjust everything, starting with the string gauge and action.

I'm really looking forward to it actually, it makes owning a new guitar more interesting and making it more my own.

Thanks for your suggestions though. Much appreciated.

Sassafras

I used to use a capo on the 2nd fret in the old days when I had a guitar with very thick strings or a high action that couldn't be lowered. Might help.

maw4neu

I bought 6 sets of Ernie Ball 11's from eBay for my Telecaster ages ago . . . They seemed to last for ages . . It felt like I had them for absolutely years, anyway during this time my old Yamaha Acoustic Guitar started to sound dull, in fact duller than dish water . . . I put a set of 11's on it and it genuinely sounded great . . . I couldn't put it down for ages . . . You need to experiment with Acoustic Strings, that said you cant go wrong with Martin Acoustic SP Lights . . . There 12's but they feel awesome and sound excellent . . . I have them on my Taylor and its pure heaven :-)

ICBM

Alnico said:

I've just tried 12's on my 12 string and it's wrecked my fingers and my wrist.

The action need to be lowered a bit, i know that but even so it's just too much.

Alnico said:

The action went stupid high when i tuned up the 12's so i adjusted the truss rod to suit them which also felt way tighter than i would ever want to tighten one. The whole thing added up to.........This is wrong.

The guitar sounds bloody incredible but it's all too tight, high and finger shreddy so my comment about getting to know the guitar properly is exactly this. I have now seen one end of the scale and i need to adjust everything, starting with the string gauge and action.

Stop! Don't do that.

12s on a 12-string are meant to be tuned down at least a tone (D-D). This was how 12-strings were always played before lighter strings were available - if you tune them up to concert pitch you'll probably damage the guitar, even if not immediately.

You need double-10s or double-9s for a 12-string at concert pitch.

Remember that two sets of strings put double the tension on the neck, and are roughly the same tension as a single set 1.4 times as heavy (maths… square root of two) so a 12-string set of double 10s at concert pitch has roughly the same tension as a 6-string set of 14s. If you tune double-12s up to concert that's about equivalent to 17s :-O.

12-strings sound immense when tuned down with heavy strings though. Listen to Leo Kottke, he's the king of that. He tunes C#-C#, but still only with 11s I think.

erky32

I've been using ErnieBall Acoustic Hybrid Slinkies 10-52 PhosBr. , they sound good on my Larrivee09, I selected these because the 3rd G is an unwound 17 which gives great bends without too much compromise. I tend to switch between Elixir 10-46 acoustics and the Ernie Balls, the EBs give you the bendability, but the Elixir that long lasting newness and a quality tone.

Alnico

Thanks@ICBM

I didn't actually see this post until today and the guitar has been sat with 12's at concert pitch for a week now !

I went and bought some 10's today so will be fitting them tomorrow, when me and the wife have finished pretending we're still interested in each other.

I get what you're saying about the tension and i did think it was a bit much.

I'll post here how it all goes tomorrow.

ICBM

Alnico said:

I didn't actually see this post until today and the guitar has been sat with 12's at concert pitch for a week now !

Hopefully it's a strong one .

Alnico said:

I went and bought some 10's today so will be fitting them tomorrow

Don't be surprised if you don't like the sound as much...

Personally I much prefer my 12-string with 11s tuned down a tone - I just capo at the second if I want to play standard-tuning. I don't really see the point in tuning higher and not using the capo, since the effectively smaller fret spacing with the capo on makes playing open chords easier, and you're probably never going to play that high up the neck on a 12-string so the neck joint being effectively at the 12th fret - 10th on mine, since it's a 12-fretter anyway! - isn't an issue really.

Alnico

Ok, so as a small test i have just detuned the 12's to D.

Yes, it does sound good until i put the capo on, then it just sounded dull.

Playing in D Tuning sounded better than good actually and i did notice it was easier on my fingers with less tension but what's clouding things is the action height still being too high.

So the plan of action is to go ahead tomorrow and fit the 10's with a lower action by taking approx 2mm off the bottom of the saddle.

If they do sound too weak and thin, i will try a set of 11's and with the lower action it might just be the right compromise.

I still say none of this is a bad thing though. I havn't owned a 12 string in so many years it's all new to me again and i am getting to know my instrument, rather than just picking it up and playing it. Somehow i like that idea and feel like when i get the right mix of string gauge / tuning and action height, i will feel more in tune with the guitar as a whole (No pun intended).

Thanks for the advice @ICBM.

I will post tomorrow when i've done the work.

Frankieabbot

Is it ok to 'mix and match' strings for accoustic guitar. I like the sound of the strings on my guitar....they are 12s. Only problem is the top e string is hard to press especially on the first fret. Can I keep the other 5 strings and put a lighter top e string on....or are strings meant to be used as 'sets' that need to be used as bought to keep the integrity of the sound....or maybe tension. Thanks.

ICBM

Frankieabbot said:

Is it ok to 'mix and match' strings for accoustic guitar. I like the sound of the strings on my guitar....they are 12s. Only problem is the top e string is hard to press especially on the first fret. Can I keep the other 5 strings and put a lighter top e string on....or are strings meant to be used as 'sets' that need to be used as bought to keep the integrity of the sound....or maybe tension.

Mix and match is fine - in fact if you check the gauges of a set of 11s, you typically find that at least two (A and D) are the same as a set of 12s.

You can make 12s much less hard on the fingers by going to 'hybrid 11/12s' - change the top two strings from 12 and 16 to 11 and 15.

Alnico

I completely failed to even pick it up today. From 09:00 it's been a manic rush to get everything done before the week starts.

I guess this has been relegated to Next weekends job now.

(Should have done this yesterday when i had time on my hands ! )

Frankieabbot

ICBM;522103" said:

Frankieabbot said:

Is it ok to 'mix and match' strings for accoustic guitar. I like the sound of the strings on my guitar....they are 12s. Only problem is the top e string is hard to press especially on the first fret. Can I keep the other 5 strings and put a lighter top e string on....or are strings meant to be used as 'sets' that need to be used as bought to keep the integrity of the sound....or maybe tension.





Mix and match is fine - in fact if you check the gauges of a set of 11s, you typically find that at least two (A and D) are the same as a set of 12s.



You can make 12s much less hard on the fingers by going to 'hybrid 11/12s' - change the top two strings from 12 and 16 to 11 and 15.

Thanks for the reply. But I'm confused about changing top two strings from 12 to 16 and 11 to 15!!! Surely the gague numbers should reduce as the string gague reduces. Not increase.

ICBM

Frankieabbot said:

But I'm confused about changing top two strings from 12 to 16 and 11 to 15!!! Surely the gague numbers should reduce as the string gague reduces. Not increase.

Yes - change from 12 and 16 to 11 and 15 .

Not from 12 to 16 and 11 to 15 .

ChrisMusic

@Frankieabbot said:  Only problem is the top e string is hard to press especially on the first fret.

One thing you should consider here, is finding out whether the nut is cut correctly.

Difficulty pressing down on the first fret, or it going out of tune over the first few frets is often an issue whit the slot in the nut not being cut deep enough, and you having to put extra pressure on the string to fret the note.  That can be pretty uncomfortable, especially on a thin cheese wire string .  It may be worth getting someone knowledgeable to take a look.

Hybrid string sets can be a good idea too, if they suit you and your playing style.

All this applies equally to electric and acoustic guitars.

Frankieabbot

I've got you. Thanks....I've got a book somewhere that gives suggested action distances between various frets. Feeler gauges out time. Although the guitar plays pretty well all over the fretboard. Just the top string at first fret issue.

Nunogilberto

I put 10s on my Vintage dreadnought a while ago - still sounds fine to me and plays a lot easier!

Frankieabbot

Nunogilberto;522641" said:

I put 10s on my Vintage dreadnought a while ago - still sounds fine to me and plays a lot easier!

I'm gonna try a 10 and see if there is an improvement in playability. The issue of this first fret problem is making me dread picking the guitar up and playing it. I won't mind any reduction in tone.....Over managing to press the string easier.

ICBM

It does sound like the nut groove may be too shallow if it's that bad. Fret the string at the third fret and look at the gap between the string and the first fret. If it's more than the diameter of the string it's too high - even less is better (about 1/4 of the string diameter on the plain strings if possible, down to maybe 1/10th on the thicker wound ones), although there should be a tiny gap.

Frankieabbot

I tried fretting the top string at the third fret then used a very thin plectrum to see what the gaps were like. Couldn't get the plectrum between the second fret and string and just managed to get the plectrum between first fret and string. I reckon dropping a string size gauge may be what is needed.