"Brand New"

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  • GruGru Frets: 339
    I tend to read it as condition of guitar/item rather than if its just come out of a box.

    If someone says 'new', 'like new' or 'almost new' most would have a pretty good idea of what to expect. If they price it the same as new, then good luck.

    The grey area for me is the shops, where guitars are hanging up. if someone picks one up and plays a few chords on it, or a particular guitar gets tried 5-10 times, you could argue that it isn't new either.

    I have purchased used guitars that are 'as new' which have been in better condition that some new shop guitars which have blatantly been 'used' on the shop floor.

    I don't see that there is really anything to worry about. You judge for yourself whether you are happy with the condition against the description, and compare that to the asking price.
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  • If I buy something from a shop, I know it's probably been played, but I'm protected under consumer law.
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  • ChalkyChalky Frets: 6807
    @stonevibe - There is specific law covering 'new' - in simple terms an item cannot be sold as new if it has been sold as new before. Small shops might get away with it because it has not been reported by a disgruntled customer. But larger companies are unlikely to risk the substantial fines. Larger companies also treat loaned/demo/trial items as not new so that they don't fall foul of the law in this area. I don't know the specifics but maybe @cyberlawyer can chip in?
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  • "Brand new" = "Comes with a warranty"

    Anything else != "Brand new"

    Simples.
    <space for hire>
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  • ChuffolaChuffola Frets: 2014
    edited February 2015
    Eh?

    Edit:  Ah.  That means "does not equal". I get it now. Doh!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71950
    This is exactly why Rickenbacker fell out with Guitar Center in the US and no longer supply them. GC have a 30-day no-fault return policy, but RIC consider that if the guitar is bought, returned within 30 days, put back into stock and then sold to another customer, it is no longer new and hence not covered by the warranty because the first buyer is still the first owner, and RIC do not offer a transferrable warranty.

    Given that a lot can happen to a guitar in 30 days when it's not in the shop, I completely agree with them - especially since this process can happen more than once.

    For what it's worth a friend of mine bought a guitar "new" from Sound Control back when they were still around, and shortly afterwards found that the bridge pickup was cutting out. Before she returned it I had a quick look to check that it wasn't something trivial like a dirty switch, and discovered that the pickup had clearly been changed and then put back, extremely badly.

    I know of at least one other UK music store chain which has done this multiple times to my knowledge and at least once in my direct experience as well.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    edited February 2015

    The terms really need defining - but that's not as easy as you might think. In fact, the more you dig and create examples, the muddier the water gets. 

    Brand New

    Dictionary definition: Being in a fresh and unused condition

    Comment: So, a pure mint unplayed guitar purchased new for investment can still be described as brand new - even if ownership changes? (the definition relates to condition not ownership history)

    New

    Dictionary definition: Of recent origin, production, purchase, etc.; having but lately come or been brought into being:

    Comment: A store has a mint unplayed Strat that came straight from Fender, made in 2013 that it forgot about.  Its not been left out in the shop, but kept sealed in its case.  Is it new? - common sense says yes but it actually doesn't meet the definition of new because it's not of 'recent origin or production'.  It's unplayed so therefore doesn't meet the definition of pre-owned or used either. So, another description is needed - 'New old stock'.  If I bought that guitar and kept it unplayed as an investment, does this change the guitar to 'used/second-hand' or is it still 'new old stock' because the change of ownership is wholly immaterial to the condition of the guitar, which hasn't changed.  Yet it has been pre-owned by me - so does it become pre-owned new old stock?  But if the guitar is pure mint and unplayed, doesn't common sense suggest the guitar is, for all intents and purposes of what we generally mean, still brand new?  

     Pre-owned

    Dictionary definition: previously owned; used; secondhand: 

    Comment: A pre-owned guitar can be 'used' or it can be mint unplayed and still meet the criteria of 'New' or even 'Brand new'.  

    Used

    Dictionary definition: previously used or owned; secondhand, showing signs of wear from use.  i.e. the guitar has been played to an extent that it can no longer reasonably be considered 'new'.

    I have a 2004 50th Anniversary Strat that is pure mint, has all the labels and tabs, unopened case candy etc, but other than being tuned and strummed lightly for literally a couple of minutes (far, far less than a 'new' guitar in-store) it has never been played sufficiently to be classed as 'used'.  It has been pre-owned but the original owner bought it for investment (as did I) and for all reasonable intents and purposes the guitar is still brand new and its condition is as if it came straight out of the factory.  It certainly hasn't been used and does not meet the used definition.  In fact, it was a special order so was never on display in a store and is actually 'newer' than an in-store guitar sold as new.  So, isn't this 'pre-owned, new old stock' ?

    We all assume we know what 'used' and 'new' means - but in reality a guitar can quite properly fall into one or more different categories and it can be a case of perspective.  

    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • RichardjRichardj Frets: 1538
    If I bought it from a shop it is brand new for me, if I sell it, it is used for the next owner. 

    I look after my gear and if I am selling something I think I can describe it as 'as new condition' meaning that it doesn't have any real signs of having been played.  It is still however used.

    Brand new can only ever be if it is coming from a shop (even if it might have been demo'd) with full manufacturers warranty and backup.
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  • xmrchixmrchi Frets: 2810
    The main factor for new pricing is profit overheads and tax, so the shop will sell it with those factored in, 2nd hand for 2 hours means tax etc should not be factored, you bought it and paid tax in a new item, if I buy it from you I'm buying from a person not a business, so the price should reflect that,

    I had a chap try to trade a nearly new yam bass plus cash for my warwick, he bought it for 370 and wanted the trade price to be the same, they were going for 200 2nd hand so I offered him the going rate, he said it's worth 370 as that's what he paid new..... No.
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    edited February 2015
    Richardj said:
    If I bought it from a shop it is brand new for me, if I sell it, it is used for the next owner. 

    I look after my gear and if I am selling something I think I can describe it as 'as new condition' meaning that it doesn't have any real signs of having been played.  It is still however used.

    Brand new can only ever be if it is coming from a shop (even if it might have been demo'd) with full manufacturers warranty and backup.
    Sorry, but that last bit is wrong in law!  It's not what new means.  There is a clear difference between ownership history and usage/condition - see my previous post.  Also, shops sell used and ex-demo gear with warranties - that doesn't make the item new.  And re 'ex-demo' - when does the usage become sufficient to move it from 'new' to 'ex-demo' (effectively 'used') category?
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • martmart Frets: 5205
    Gassage said:
    ...
    Totally disagree. New and Used are binary terms.
    No, sorry, that just seems too simplistic for me. If they're binary terms then, presumably, you're talking about ownership. If it changes ownership, e.g. if someone buys it from a shop, then it's not new. But what's the ownership status of something returned under a 30-day return deal, like the guitar center example that @ICBM quoted above? I guess you'd say it was no longer new. And maybeThomann would seem to agree as they label these things b-stock, although I think they still refer to them as "new".

    But, for another boundary-challenging example, suppose there's a brand new guitar in stock in a shop, and the shop gets sold to new owners, along with all its stock. The guitar has changed ownership; is it now no longer new?
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    edited February 2015
    Lots of interesting thoughts here - as I said, the more you analyse all this, the muddier the waters become especially from different perspectives!  This really isn't as straight forward as you might think!  

    Hey, Muddier Waters - be a great name for a guitar player, don't you think! 
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • RichardjRichardj Frets: 1538
    I didn't mean ex-demo.  There is a clear difference. If you go into a guitar shop and try a new guitar hanging on the wall but decide not to buy it does it then have to be sold for a lower price, or have to be described as played?  For our little niche we have to accept that someone may well have tried our new guitar in the store before we bought it. We all want to try a few to decide which is right for us.
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  • KebabkidKebabkid Frets: 3301
    edited February 2015
    Just like the term NOS, maybe NOB would be suitable in this instance - New Old Bought
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    Richardj said:
    I didn't mean ex-demo.  There is a clear difference. If you go into a guitar shop and try a new guitar hanging on the wall but decide not to buy it does it then have to be sold for a lower price, or have to be described as played?  For our little niche we have to accept that someone may well have tried our new guitar in the store before we bought it. We all want to try a few to decide which is right for us.
    Exactly - at what stage does 'new' become 'ex-demo' and 'ex-demo' become 'used' (remembering that it's the guitar's condition that's changing here, not ownership).  If a new guitar has been on display for 4 weeks but it's been played several times every day, wouldn't that constitute used by any reasonable person?  Where and how do you draw the line?
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71950
    There are in fact people who like to only buy new guitars from mail-order box-shifters because they don't like the idea of someone else having touched their guitar before they did. If I remember rightly there was someone on MR, not sure if he made it over here or not.

    Although I'm not sure how you avoid it being touched by the QC guy who played it at the factory before passing it and putting it in the case.















    Buy a Gibson, perhaps :).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2324
    edited February 2015
    ^ LOL

    mart said:
    So if I try a new guitar in a shop for a while, then decide not to buy it, is it no longer "new"?

    Leaving aside that chestnut, clearly there are two issues: one is strict ownership, and the other is the condition it's in. I've always taken it that people selling on the classifieds here, and individuals selling on eBay, know that potential buyers know that items are not brand new in the sense of ownership, so use the term "new" to specify the condition of the item.
    Yeah, there can be some overlap in condition I suppose (though if it's really beat-up it should probably be sold as ex-demo, as @mike_l said), but not in the terminology- and you can certainly use less misleading terms to describe the same thing. "Mint", for example, or "in as-new condition" (rather than "new"). (Ah @Schnozzalee beat me to it with the "as-new" suggestion. :)))

    Perfectly simple, unless you're trying to mislead.

    Voxman said:

    The terms really need defining - but that's not as easy as you might think. In fact, the more you dig and create examples, the muddier the water gets. 


    (had to cut this to get my post to fit :)) )

    We all assume we know what 'used' and 'new' means - but in reality a guitar can quite properly fall into one or more different categories and it can be a case of perspective.  

    I'm pretty sure there are going to be legal definitions of what "new" and "used" are. Doesn't matter what the condition is. Granted, as you implied, that does mean that there can sometimes be overlap in the condition etc., but that doesn't mean there's not a black-and-white legal definition as well (granted, the 30 day thing affects that but I'm guessing the law takes that into account).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Used_good

    "A second-hand or used good is one that is being purchased by or otherwise transferred to a second or later end user." (first line of wikipedia entry)
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    edited February 2015
    I think I'd prefer to trust Oxford and/or Cambridge dictionary to Wikipedia (no offence intended).  But it's the definition of what constitutes 'new' or 'brand new' as per the OP's post that is key here in terms of descriptors for gear being offered for sale.
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2324
    edited February 2015
    I think I'd prefer to trust an encyclopedia to a dictionary (no offence intended). A dictionary defines words- normally in as few words as possible. An encyclopedia actually gives background information i.e. goes in depth. IIRC a while back some journal found that wikipedia was actually more accurate than encylopedia britannica fwiw.

    The other thing is, using wikipedia I can look up the exact thing I want- i.e. new when it relates to goods being sold (and I did). How many of those definitions you looked up actually related to goods being sold?

    The "new" definition you quoted also looks awfully close to the one on dictionary.com, too :))
    Voxman said:

    New

    Dictionary definition: Of recent origin, production, purchase, etc.; having but lately come or been brought into being:

     http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/New

    "1.
    of recent origin, production, purchase, etc.; having but lately come or been brought into being:
    a new book."

    Not exactly the Oxford or Cambridge dictionary... especially if Wikipedia isn't good enough for you.
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  • SkippedSkipped Frets: 2371
    When a private seller asks you for almost the new price for a nearly new guitar, then of course what you should say is:

    "But 20% of the new price was VAT" 

    Er....So f*cking what?

    "Well......you can't expect me to pay the VAT. You are not even VAT registered......"


    :))

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