string gauge and bending

Hertz32

I have to bend a load more on longer scales to reach a tone than I do on shorter scales. Would string guage also affect the distance required?
(My phone autocorrect doesnt work on the site so forgive me if I cant spell guage right)

Teetonetal

Not the distance I think, but a heavy gauge will offer up more resistance, so will feel like harder work.

richardhomer

I'm not sure I agree with what you are saying. String tension is lower on a shorter scale length.

Bends increase tension to raise the pitch of the note. The lower the starting tension, the lower the increase needed to hit the desired note.

Ergo - bends seem 'easier' on shorter scale lengths - but I suspect that is more to do with 'tension' rather than 'distance'. The only time this 'rule' might not apply, is if the guitar has a floating trem - in which case you are adding tension to both the springs and the strings - effectively requiring you to push the string further across the neck to get to the desired pitch. This is particularly noticeable if you try to acheive the same note by bending on a Strat, compared to a Tele. You hit the note with less movement on a Tele.

ICBM

It's a bit early in the morning coffee cycle to be thinking about physics , but I think Hertz is correct - on a shorter scale, the string tension is lower for a given gauge so the rise in pitch will be faster for a given amount of stretch. I think .

I also think that a heavier string will rise in pitch faster than a lighter one because its 'spring constant' is higher, although the force needed will be greater - so the way to get maximum pitch change with minimum bend distance is a short-scale guitar with heavy strings.

It certainly seems that way from some of the things I've played - I once used a '65 Fender Musicmaster (22.5" scale) strung with 12s, which gave an absolutely huge bend range, although it felt like a Strat with 10s.

Danny1969

You don't have to bend as far on a shorter scale so bends are generally easier You have to compensate when switching between strat and lp to avoid over bending on the lp or under bending on the strat if you see what I mean

meltedbuzzbox

I will grab my Jag and jazzmaster... one moment

edit :- the jag needs less bending/force than the Jazzmaster to bend to the same note 

(both on 11s)

Hertz32

Yeah, the reason I ask is because bending is super easy on my gibson scale Dean, but when I move to my 30" scale Agile, it feels like i'll snap the string before reaching a tone and was wondering if the problem could be solved by moving to 8's rather than 9's that are on there now. 10's snap before they even reach pitch!

ICBM

Hertz32 said:

Yeah, the reason I ask is because bending is super easy on my gibson scale Dean, but when I move to my 30" scale Agile, it feels like i'll snap the string before reaching a tone and was wondering if the problem could be solved by moving to 8's rather than 9's that are on there now. 10's snap before they even reach pitch!

What are you tuning each one to? I hope you're not tuning the 30" scale up to concert . That will definitely make it really stiff, and I can't think of any other reason you would snap 10s on it...

richardhomer

Hertz32;524072" said:

my 30" scale Agile

Er, I think that's what commonly known as a 'bass'....

Hertz32

Drop E, so E B E A D G B E. I like heavy strings though, I have 12's on the Dean in standard and while Tosin Abasi uses a 72 for his low E on a 27" scale, I'm currently on an 84 considering 90 on a 30" scale! I have quite a heavy rhythm playing style, though I am gentle for my soloing.

Skipped

Is it just scale length though?
The feel of an Es guitar with a trapeze bridge (string tension and perception of bending. Ha ha Perceptive Bends :-S      ) would suggest to me that the total string length including the considerable length behind the bridge matters.

wordy

Danny1969 said:

You have to compensate when switching between strat and lp to avoid over bending on the lp or under bending on the strat if you see what I mean

I have a bit of a problem with that atm tbh.  Going from one guitar to another often seems to throw me out.  It also probably doesnt help that I dont have the same gauge/brand strings on every guitar and as time has gone on, less actual effort is required for the same result, as I've gotten better at the technique.

At the beginning I can remember bending a whole tone could be quite tough.... now the biggest danger is bending too far.

richardhomer

Skipped;524103" said:

Is it just scale length though?

The feel of an Es guitar with a trapeze bridge (string tension and perception of bending. Ha ha Perceptive Bends :-S      ) would suggest to me that the total string length including the considerable length behind the bridge matters.

Correct. My 335 was harder to bend on when it had a Bigsby - there was an awful lot of 'dead' string length behind the saddle.

I've heard that reverse Fender style headstocks make bending on the top strings easier - I've never played one, so can speak from experience - but can imagine it would.

ThePrettyDamned

At 30 inch scale... I don't know if I'd want to be bending strings tuned up to concert pitch (high e, b, g etc). I'd expect them to be a tone or two lower, that's a mega size guitar. For bending, I'd probably source a fan fret and go from a 27 to 30 inch perhaps.

ICBM

Hertz32 said:

Drop E, so E B E A D G B E.

I think that's the explanation right there! Tuning a 9 on a 30" scale right up to E will be very close to the breaking strength of the string - hence why a 10 snaps - so it will feel stiff and need to be bent further to go up a given amount.

A 12 on a Gibson scale length is almost certainly under lower tension, so will go up in pitch faster.

This is why there are such things as fanned-fret instruments .

Hertz32

ThePrettyDamned said:

At 30 inch scale... I don't know if I'd want to be bending strings tuned up to concert pitch (high e, b, g etc). I'd expect them to be a tone or two lower, that's a mega size guitar. For bending, I'd probably source a fan fret and go from a 27 to 30 inch perhaps.

You just try and get a fan fret for less than £1200 I do want a fan, and yes 30-27 is my exact preference. I just flat out couldn't afford it! I can bend 1/2-1 tone on the 30" scale, it just makes big stuff like ka$cade by Animals as Leaders, and Lines in the Sand by Dream Theater quite difficult. I can solve the problem by sliding up a couple frets and then bending anyway.

richardhomer

Why would you play an extended scale-length guitar at concert pitch?

I though the whole point of these things was to allow down-tuning, while retaining enough clarity, by keeping enough tension on the strings?

ICBM

Hertz32 said:

You just try and get a fan fret for less than £1200 I do want a fan, and yes 30-27 is my exact preference. I just flat out couldn't afford it! I can bend 1/2-1 tone on the 30" scale, it just makes big stuff like ka$cade by Animals as Leaders, and Lines in the Sand by Dream Theater quite difficult. I can solve the problem by sliding up a couple frets and then bending anyway.

Would a capo or a partial capo for the treble-side strings help, so you could effectively shorten the scale length on that side? Or would that throw your finger shapes out and make things more difficult?

Hertz32

Or just have a superbly clear tone at concert pitch? I agree that 28 or 28.75" are just as good on an 8, and 30 is a 9 string territory. But the model I wanted was 27" or 30" and I'm already up to 84 on the 30". I'd have been playing with a 110 or something equally stupid if it was a 27.

ICBM said:

Hertz32 said:

You just try and get a fan fret for less than £1200 I do want a fan, and yes 30-27 is my exact preference. I just flat out couldn't afford it! I can bend 1/2-1 tone on the 30" scale, it just makes big stuff like ka$cade by Animals as Leaders, and Lines in the Sand by Dream Theater quite difficult. I can solve the problem by sliding up a couple frets and then bending anyway.

Good point, I shall find out Would a capo or a partial capo for the treble-side strings help, so you could effectively shorten the scale length on that side? Or would that throw your finger shapes out and make things more difficult?

I shall try it, and find out

Hertz32

I do occasionally drop my E to a C# so its C# B EAD... As well, so the longer scale helps there too.

richardhomer

^ There's nothing 'unclear' about the sound of a 25.5 scale tuned to concert pitch.