Modes - A breakthrough for me :)

frankus

Sambostar said:

I understand modes, starting on degrees of scale etc and hear the obvious overall tonality, but can't grasp the subtlety of the actual tones relative to the root tone in real life, although I struggle with links in to chords progression too.  Will study the video, but it looks confusing to me.  Think I'd rather just hear progressions.

Hi Sambostar - I don't know if this will help, but I've found in chess playing that the terms for actions has helped me understand stuff a little better: pins, splits and so on, sometimes the vocabulary clarifies stuff - so I'm wondering if it's the same here.

Modes are used in two different ways:

Modes created from a common root note are known as relative modes - C major, C lydian, Cmixolydian, C dorian etc.. they're all relative to the same root note. This kinda stuff is used by Joe Satriani in his "pitch axis approach" given a C5 power chord he can use the C relative modes to create movement in the music.

Modes starting on degrees of the scale are known as derivative modes - they're derived from one key signature... C major, G mixolydian, F lydian, D dorian... etc. For this you're always playing the notes of C major but the chords or bassline beneath is changing the context of those notes. Youtube Guthrie Govan's Pirate Modes for an audio example of this - if you've not seen it before.

Often people don't differentiate between the two when they're talking about modes and it gets confusing trying to follow the discussion.

ftumch

axisus said:

I don't get modes at all, but I have found a secret cheat that kind of works.

Well don't keep us in suspenders, share

ChrisMusic

Freebird said:   It seems to me that when investigating the modes it pays to look at them from as many different viewpoints as possible.

I think that is a very healthy way to view the world in general.  The more different perspectives you take on any subject, the less two dimensional things and ideas are, and the more three dimensional your reality becomes.  Walk around a statue, read around a subject, watch a number of videos on YT about anything, talk to ten different people and get ten different opinions (or more!), just to see this notion in motion.

See the world through other's eyes, and build a perspective and understanding.  Find the viewpoints that resonate and help you grow.

Do bear in mind that all reality is just an illusion created by the brain.

A construct, for the simple convenience of our survival !

Duration 2:07

There are hundreds of talented street artists out there creating some fantastic illusional art...

Duration 2:51

And one more for the road...  

please excuse the naff narration, but it shows how questionable our sense of reality is, including the 'Tritone Paradox'.

It's all a matter of perspective right ?

Duration 6:26

Sorry for the slight side-track. 

As you were folks,

back to Modes...

GuyBoden

frankus said:

Modes are used in two different ways:

Modes created from a common root note are known as relative modes - C major, C lydian, Cmixolydian, C dorian etc.. they're all relative to the same root note. This kinda stuff is used by Joe Satriani in his "pitch axis approach" given a C5 power chord he can use the C relative modes to create movement in the music.

Modes starting on degrees of the scale are known as derivative modes - they're derived from one key signature... C major, G mixolydian, F lydian, D dorian... etc. For this you're always playing the notes of C major but the chords or bassline beneath is changing the context of those notes. Youtube Guthrie Govan's Pirate Modes for an audio example of this - if you've not seen it before.

Often people don't differentiate between the two when they're talking about modes and it gets confusing trying to follow the discussion.

I've never heard of "derivative modes", but we all live and learn. I'm guessing that this must be the diatonic harmony derived from the the tonic mode's scale.

Knowing that each mode has a "character note" was extremely useful for my Modal playing, any chord that contains this "character note" sounds unstable and wants to resolve to a more stable chord in the mode's harmony.

This is similar to common functional harmony where the Ionian scale has the "character note" a perfect 4th, so any chord that contains "character note" a perfect 4th will sound like it needs to resolve.
 

rlw

Fuck me but this is all very complicated isn't it.....

ChrisMusic

I love his way of laying out four note sequences on paper and working from there.  A great way to view this, and a useful creative technique.

One thing though.  If you think about it, the whole-tone segment is fully included in the Ionian major scale, it is scale degrees 4, 5, 6, 7.  With it starting on the Lydian root, I would have thought that would make it a natural candidate for being called the Lydian sequence, with it's characteristic sharpened fourth.

With the whole-tone sequence that he has used on his paper sample, topping and tailing that with a semitone puts it in full major scale context.  Topping and tailing with a whole-tone gives the full 6 note whole-tone scale, or 7 notes to the octave resolution.

It would complicate his diagram, but you can overlay the four whole-tone segment to see what I mean, you don't need the whole-tone scale to justify it..

A worthy addition, IMHO, would be to have a four note sequence from the half-whole tone scale. (8 notes and 9 to the octave resolution).  That is another flavour to mix into making your own modal sequences.

Whole-half tone scale is easy, and it comes from consecutive Dorian sequences with the paper a semitone apart instead of a tone apart.

Do let me know if I have got any of this wrong, after all I am still climbing the learning curve myself.

http://i.imgur.com/fwg7DiL.jpg

Great thread / discussion @Freebird, lots to think about   

frankus

rlw said:

Fuck me but this is all very complicated isn't it.....

It's as complicated as you want to make it - it boils down to:

there are only 12 different musical notes, you can play any one of them at any time in a bar but for different durations...

The rest is number wang that sounds fabulous on an internet forum but is largely (if not wholly) irrelevant on a stage.

GuyBoden

ChrisMusic said:

I love his way of laying out four note sequences on paper and working from there.  A great way to view this, and a useful creative technique.

One thing though.  If you think about it, the whole-tone segment is fully included in the Ionian major scale, it is scale degrees 4, 5, 6, 7.  With it starting on the Lydian root, I would have thought that would make it a natural candidate for being called the Lydian sequence, with it's characteristic sharpened fourth.

With the whole-tone sequence that he has used on his paper sample, topping and tailing that with a semitone puts it in full major scale context.  Topping and tailing with a whole-tone gives the full 6 note whole-tone scale, or 7 notes to the octave resolution.

It would complicate his diagram, but you can overlay the four whole-tone segment to see what I mean, you don't need the whole-tone scale to justify it..

A worthy addition, IMHO, would be to have a four note sequence from the half-whole tone scale. (8 notes and 9 to the octave resolution).  That is another flavour to mix into making your own modal sequences.

Whole-half tone scale is easy, and it comes from consecutive Dorian sequences with the paper a semitone apart instead of a tone apart.

Do let me know if I have got any of this wrong, after all I am still climbing the learning curve myself.

http://i.imgur.com/fwg7DiL.jpg

Great thread / discussion @Freebird, lots to think about   

IMHO, after too many years of playing Jazz, the basic info I needed to know was the character note of each mode and the mode's harmonic chord tones. Otherwise solos sound like meandering noodling.

bloodandtears

By "Harmonic Chord Tones" I assume you mean chords in progressions that facilitate the mode?

GuyBoden

bloodandtears said:

By "Harmonic Chord Tones" I assume you mean chords in progressions that facilitate the mode?

Yes, that's it, but as always it's easier said than done.

bloodandtears

you don't say...  lol..

frankus

bloodandtears said:

By "Harmonic Chord Tones" I assume you mean chords in progressions that facilitate the mode?

Is that the same as diatonic chords?

bloodandtears

Humour me then.... in the key of C major. . Suggest an F Lydian chord progression. ... G, Am, F, F ???

rlw

frankus said:

rlw said:

Fuck me but this is all very complicated isn't it.....

It's as complicated as you want to make it - it boils down to:

there are only 12 different musical notes, you can play any one of them at any time in a bar but for different durations...

The rest is number wang that sounds fabulous on an internet forum but is largely (if not wholly) irrelevant on a stage.

..thus restoring my faith.........

GuyBoden

bloodandtears said:

Humour me then.... in the key of C major. . Suggest an F Lydian chord progression. ... G, Am, F, F ???

Simple Modal Harmony

Each Mode has a Character note.

Dorian's 6th, Phrygian's 2nd, Lydian's 4th, Mixolydian's 7th, Aeolian's 6th, Locrian's 5th and 2nd (not popular).

Tension chords contain the Mode's character note.

Non-Tension chords don't contain the Mode's character note.

When the character note is the Root of the chord it has the most tension, then it's the 5th, then the 3rd and the 7th has the weakest tension.

So, for a simple diatonic "F" Lydian Mode progression, knowing "F" Lydian's character note is the 4th, "B".

Simple three note chord example:
Chord 1 could be simply 3 note major triad F, A, C. 
Chord 2 could be 3 notes F, A, B.
Chord 3 could be 3 notes E, A, B.
Chord 4 could be a E minor triad with the notes E, G, B. 

Next, non-diatonic modal harmony or polymodality?

bloodandtears

So you suggest.....

F major : F,A,C
B7        : B,F,A
A sus 2 : A,B,E
E minor : E,G,B


yet whilst my suggestions of G, Am and F were constructed of the correct scale notes (thus safe chords), only the G chord exploits the lydian raised 4th B note.. right??  

I shall try these when I next have my guitar to hand... may just be joining the dots here..

GuyBoden

bloodandtears said:

So you suggest.....

F major : F,A,C
B7        : B,F,A
A sus 2 : A,B,E
E minor : E,G,B


yet whilst my suggestions of G, Am and F were constructed of the correct scale notes (thus safe chords), only the G chord exploits the lydian raised 4th B note.. right??  

I shall try these when I next have my guitar to hand... may just be joining the dots here..

Yes, the character note "B" creates tension, as stated, you get more or less tension depending on the chord voicing (where the "B" is in the chord), you'll notice this when you play..............if you play B,F,A,  that will create a lot of tension, because the "B" is the root note of the chord........

My chord examples, have nice sounding voice leading, but experiment with the "B" in various positions in each chord:
Chord 1: F, A, C. 
Chord 2: F, A, B.
Chord 3: E, A, B.
Chord 4: E, G, B. 


Good luck

bloodandtears

So you are suggesting keep the "tension/flavour" as the 3rd note in a triad initially, before experimenting?

Do your triads have names??

GuyBoden

bloodandtears said:

So you are suggesting keep the "tension/flavour" as the 3rd note in a triad initially, before experimenting?

Do your triads have names??

To make it easy, I'm just using three notes, as you already know, it's the intervals between the notes that dictate the chord's flavour; minor, major, dim, aug, sus etc, so these 3 notes could be apart of many different chords......

Chords are just a collect of notes, if it's diatonic, they're just notes from the same scale,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 

bloodandtears

Ok.. think I'm making a breakthrough albeit theoretically ...

C Mixolydian.. flattened 7th note is the flavour note.. C D E F G A Bb C

proposed chords... C, Am, Bb, Gm ...  the latter two adding the tension notes

getting warm??