Modes - A breakthrough for me :)

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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    Freebird said:
    GuyBoden said:
    Knowing the fretboard is the basics.
    Great stuff @GuyBoden ; much appreciate..

    would you mind marking my homework??

    I'm playing with simple chord progressions based on modes to assist my learning.. I've tried to include the flavour notes in the chord as well including it in my melodies whilst retaining the tonal root.

    Progression 1) A, A, Dsus4, D : D Mixolydian?
    Progression 2) Gm, C, Dm, C : G Dorian?


    A quick glance:

    A = A C# E
    D = D F# A
    Dsus4 = D G A

    D Mixolydian = D E F# G A B C

    No C# in D Mixolydian.
    D Mixolydian is very usable, well for me anyway :D
    You could even play all 12 chromatics notes over the progression, whilst outlining the chord tones and using the tension note, but that's not the point of this thread on Modes  ;)
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    @Freebird

    Sorry, I forgot that you started this thread, so if you want to discuss adding chromatic notes outside of the mode in a Modal harmony context go straight ahead. :)
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • Did @Freebird mean in general or in relation to the A, A, Dsus4, D progression ??
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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    Did @Freebird mean in general or in relation to the A, A, Dsus4, D progression ??
    I mean it sounds nice I like it  ;)
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • I have been watching Frank Gambale's Modes No More Mystery clips on youtube as suggested by @MatthewSheddery.. very insightful indeed. I like the concept of the drone, I have seen it suggested in Chappers clips too but can someone explain why Frank insists on using the IV and V chords when constructing his chord progressions?

    Whilst I agree that it can be viewed as theoretical voodoo, it certainly is giving me something to practice with as opposed to the same old pentatonic noodling I have been doing; and training my ear no doubt too.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    edited April 2015
    I have been watching Frank Gambale's Modes No More Mystery clips on youtube as suggested by @MatthewSheddery.. very insightful indeed. I like the concept of the drone, I have seen it suggested in Chappers clips too but can someone explain why Frank insists on using the IV and V chords when constructing his chord progressions?

    Whilst I agree that it can be viewed as theoretical voodoo, it certainly is giving me something to practice with as opposed to the same old pentatonic noodling I have been doing; and training my ear no doubt too.
    Look at what notes are in the chords and what are the notes in the Mode?

    What is the Character note in the Mode and is it in the chords?

    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    I have been watching Frank Gambale's Modes No More Mystery clips on youtube as suggested by @MatthewSheddery.. very insightful indeed. I like the concept of the drone, I have seen it suggested in Chappers clips too but can someone explain why Frank insists on using the IV and V chords when constructing his chord progressions?
    If you take any scale it can be described by taking any two neighbouring diatonic chords,

    It's been a while since I watched "mowds now maw mistruhy" so apologies if the key is wrong (I -> ii) Cmaj7 and Dmin7 - and you've all the information to construct the mode. same goes for ii -> iii, iii -> IV etc... so the next question is making a simple and decent chord progression.

    The IV -> V progression is known as a static dominant progression - since the dominant chord isn't returning to the I (say Cmaj) chord... if it were a functional dominant progression ( V -> I ), the solos would be as batshit crazy (AKA atonal) because V -> I (functional dominant progression) is the strongest pull the greatest liberties can be taken with it.

    So IV -> V is a static dominant progression and as consonant as it can get. It also icontains all the constituent notes of the mode


    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    frankus said:
    I have been watching Frank Gambale's Modes No More Mystery clips on youtube as suggested by @MatthewSheddery.. very insightful indeed. I like the concept of the drone, I have seen it suggested in Chappers clips too but can someone explain why Frank insists on using the IV and V chords when constructing his chord progressions?
    If you take any scale it can be described by taking any two neighbouring diatonic chords,

    It's been a while since I watched "mowds now maw mistruhy" so apologies if the key is wrong (I -> ii) Cmaj7 and Dmin7 - and you've all the information to construct the mode. same goes for ii -> iii, iii -> IV etc... so the next question is making a simple and decent chord progression.

    The IV -> V progression is known as a static dominant progression - since the dominant chord isn't returning to the I (say Cmaj) chord... if it were a functional dominant progression ( V -> I ), the solos would be as batshit crazy (AKA atonal) because V -> I (functional dominant progression) is the strongest pull the greatest liberties can be taken with it.

    So IV -> V is a static dominant progression and as consonant as it can get. It also icontains all the constituent notes of the mode


    You're using Functional Harmony rules to try to explain Modal Harmony, but they don't have the same rules................................
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9794
    frankus said:
    Hi Sambostar - I don't know if this will help, but I've found in chess playing that the terms for actions has helped me understand stuff a little better: pins, splits and so on, sometimes the vocabulary clarifies stuff - so I'm wondering if it's the same here.

    Modes are used in two different ways:

    Modes created from a common root note are known as relative modes - C major, C lydian, Cmixolydian, C dorian etc.. they're all relative to the same root note. This kinda stuff is used by Joe Satriani in his "pitch axis approach" given a C5 power chord he can use the C relative modes to create movement in the music.

    Modes starting on degrees of the scale are known as derivative modes - they're derived from one key signature... C major, G mixolydian, F lydian, D dorian... etc. For this you're always playing the notes of C major but the chords or bassline beneath is changing the context of those notes. Youtube Guthrie Govan's Pirate Modes for an audio example of this - if you've not seen it before.

    Often people don't differentiate between the two when they're talking about modes and it gets confusing trying to follow the discussion.


    I like your explanation - wis ! (fwiw)
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
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  • In essence, if the IV -> V static dominant progression provides the greatest consonance and contains all the constituent notes of the mode then I guess it makes sense to use it for the purposes of illustration and aural demonstration as per Frank..
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    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    edited April 2015
    Ok, in earlier posts, I've explained Modal Harmony in very simplistic terms, I felt that more players should understand Modal Harmony and not be confused between Functional and Modal Harmony. Obviously I've failed, but at least I tried.........................   Bon Voyage :-<
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    GuyBoden said:
    You're using Functional Harmony rules to try to explain Modal Harmony, but they don't have the same rules................................

    Hmm, no fooling, is that a Sears poncho or is that a real poncho?
    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733

    frankus said:
    GuyBoden said:
    You're using Functional Harmony rules to try to explain Modal Harmony, but they don't have the same rules................................

    Hmm, no fooling, is that a Sears poncho or is that a real poncho?

    GuyBoden said:
    Ok, in earlier posts, I've explained Modal Harmony in very simplistic terms, I felt that more players should understand Modal Harmony and not be confused between Functional and Modal Harmony. Obviously I've failed, but at least I tried.........................   Bon Voyage :-<
    frankus
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • To @GuyBoden and @Frankus

    You have both proved to be extremely helpful in this blog.. I do hope it will continue. I, for one, have had a breakthrough.
    My trading feedback

    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    To @GuyBoden and @Frankus

    You have both proved to be extremely helpful in this blog.. I do hope it will continue. I, for one, have had a breakthrough.
    Me too, my D Mixolydian ditty written with the help of this thread is going to be heading straight for the charts  >:D<
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    edited April 2015
    Glad to hear it @bloodandtears :) I was kinda hoping that @Clarky would have emerged from his studio to wade in on this debate as he's the resident musicoligist.

    Debates on theory are sadly never like debates between martial artists. I bumped into a medieval martial artist at Warwick and he regaled me with history and tried to stab me with a short sword and I punched him in the ribs... I meet a cage fighter and we compare roundhouse kicks from Muay Thai, Tae Kwondo and Karate... my boxing coach shows me an illegal boxing move that's an application of a move from Heian Shodan... I didn't tell him that, as he'd hit me :) at a certain point every martial artist realises - the human body only moves (and can be moved) a set number of ways - so the same moves and locks are found in most martial arts throughout time. They inform each other... and the notion of supremacy of a style is mostly specious - except styles evolved to specifically counter another.

    There are only 12 notes in music. If you find a method that works for you, or a teacher who works for you, you'll eventually learn all the same sounds regardless of the system.

    I'm a bit sad this seems to have been about competing ideologies, basically - for the most part they're the same sounds described from different approaches, which means, if done right, they should complement rather than contradict - it's cool if you've got to that point bloodandtears :) ... maybe you can help round my education off re Guy's posts :)




    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733

    frankus said:
    Glad to hear it @bloodandtears :) I was kinda hoping that @Clarky would have emerged from his studio to wade in on this debate as he's the resident musicoligist.

    Debates on theory are sadly never like debates between martial artists. I bumped into a medieval martial artist at Warwick and he regaled me with history and tried to stab me with a short sword and I punched him in the ribs... I meet a cage fighter and we compare roundhouse kicks from Muay Thai, Tae Kwondo and Karate... my boxing coach shows me an illegal boxing move that's an application of a move from Heian Shodan... I didn't tell him that, as he'd hit me :) at a certain point every martial artist realises - the human body only moves (and can be moved) a set number of ways - so the same moves and locks are found in most martial arts throughout time. They inform each other... and the notion of supremacy of a style is mostly specious - except styles evolved to specifically counter another.

    There are only 12 notes in music. If you find a method that works for you, or a teacher who works for you, you'll eventually learn all the same sounds regardless of the system.

    I'm a bit sad this seems to have been about competing ideologies, basically - for the most part they're the same sounds described from different approaches, which means, if done right, they should complement rather than contradict - it's cool if you've got to that point bloodandtears :) ... maybe you can help round my education off re Guy's posts :)




    There's no conflict, I totally understand, I've heard the anti Modal stuff before, Modal Harmony can be difficult to grasp and hear, especially if you've spent all your life only using traditional Major and minor functional harmony. To hear the Mixolydian as the tonic centre is a big ask when you've spent all your life hearing the Major as the tonic centre.   :-<
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • This is where the drone note works a treat...

    Gambale plays two simple major chord progressions to illustrate..  A,A,D,E  and E,E,D,A....   for me this perfectly highlighted concept of changing the tonal centre for mode usage, in this example A Ionian to E mixolydian.
    My trading feedback

    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    GuyBoden said:
    There's no conflict, I totally understand, I've heard the anti Modal stuff before, Modal Harmony can be difficult to grasp and hear, especially if you've spent all your life only using traditional Major and minor functional harmony. To hear the Mixolydian as the tonic centre is a big ask when you've spent all your life hearing the Major as the tonic centre.   :-<
    Guy, how about easing off on the assumptions, eh? :D
    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    someone call???? what's the prob??
    play every note as if it were your first
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