Modes - A breakthrough for me :)

frankus

Modal harmony - tell us about it Uncle Clarky and mention Hildegard Von Bingen, please

Clarky

Clarky's thought of the day [regarding modes]:

far too many people are very good at making them sound far too complicated..

the vast amount of particle physics and bullsht that surrounds and buries this topic never ceases to amaze me..

bloodandtears

well they have been demystified (in the main) to me via this discussion.. 

Freebird

bloodandtears said:

well they have been demystified (in the main) to me via this discussion.. 

And I learned something too, so it's not all bad 

bloodandtears

Freebird said:

bloodandtears said:

well they have been demystified (in the main) to me via this discussion.. 

And I learned something too, so it's not all bad 

has to be said.. I had no idea what your original post was on about but I will revisit to see if it makes sense now..

Freebird

bloodandtears said:

Freebird said:

bloodandtears said:

well they have been demystified (in the main) to me via this discussion.. 

And I learned something too, so it's not all bad 

has to be said.. I had no idea what your original post was on about but I will revisit to see if it makes sense now..

Modes are now a thin fog instead of a thick fog, and I feel confident that I will get to the bottom of it all thanks to the contributors in this thread.

Clarky

the single biggest confusion that comes with modes is that they are worked out by using a major scale [C maj for example] as a reference.. this is all well and good.. but if you try to understand them by continuing to use the same pool of notes, your ear will never hear the differences between them.. so all you hear are the notes in C major starting from different places..

the other point of confusion is that people thing that if you are playing in the key of C, that every time a chord changes that you are changing mode.. for example, if the chord of G is sounding in the key of C, some folk assume that you are now playing in G mixolydian. this is also untrue.. you're still playing in the key of C but over chord V..

before you can fully understand modes, you need to know and understand the 12 intervals [because this is in a sense the 'alphabet' of music]… then you need to understand how to spell a major scale [because this is essentially the 'parent' scale that gives birth to the modes]..

once you nail these two basic things, the next step to nailing modes is really quite simple.. much more so than most people think..

but….

trying to get your head around modes without fully understanding intervals and the fundamentals of the major scale will never work..

to get to actually hear the tonal coloration of each mode, you need to noodle with them against the same bass note..

only then will their distinct personalities leap out at you..

from then on, there are some very very cool tricks you can do with them that can put quite an exciting new lease of life into our old / well trod lick vocabulary..

hands up who don't know / understand intervals and would like them to be explained...

GuyBoden

Clarky said:

the single biggest confusion that comes with modes is that they are worked out by using a major scale [C maj for example] as a reference.. this is all well and good.. but if you try to understand them by continuing to use the same pool of notes, your ear will never hear the differences between them.. so all you hear are the notes in C major starting from different places..

the other point of confusion is that people thing that if you are playing in the key of C, that every time a chord changes that you are changing mode.. for example, if the chord of G is sounding in the key of C, some folk assume that you are now playing in G mixolydian. this is also untrue.. you're still playing in the key of C but over chord V..

before you can fully understand modes, you need to know and understand the 12 intervals [because this is in a sense the 'alphabet' of music]… then you need to understand how to spell a major scale [because this is essentially the 'parent' scale that gives birth to the modes]..

once you nail these two basic things, the next step to nailing modes is really quite simple.. much more so than most people think..

but….

trying to get your head around modes without fully understanding intervals and the fundamentals of the major scale will never work..

to get to actually hear the tonal coloration of each mode, you need to noodle with them against the same bass note..

only then will their distinct personalities leap out at you..

from then on, there are some very very cool tricks you can do with them that can put quite an exciting new lease of life into our old / well trod lick vocabulary..

hands up who don't know / understand intervals and would like them to be explained...

Have you got an explanation of "Modal Harmony", this seems to be a grey area with some players........

Thanks 

kin

@Clarky , I'd like an explanation of intervals when you have time. Thanks  

Clarky

modal harmony is simply using a mode as a 'key' in its own right through out a piece [either entirely or in a specific section]..

it's not that rare either..

listen to some old school funk in a minor key.. it'll often be dorian throughout..

or Folk / Celtic music.. they tend to stick to a mode throughout..

that makes sense when you have an instrument that cannot play chromatically and essentially has a scale 'built in' by design [which is true for a great many very old instruments]

in fact, I consider modal harmony as a term for 'using modes' instead of using the major, minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor scales..

so… when you play the blues, you're using modal harmony

it can also be argued that the bulk of contemporary pop, rock, soul, funk, Motown etc are also modal

because if that are "major" it's common to see the mixolydian mode used rathe than the major scale

and if minor, the dorian mode is just as commonly used as the natural minor..

turn on the radio and you'll find that modes are hidden in plain sight..

they're all around you in as much as [or maybe even more than] 50% of everything you hear..

interestingly… many of the artists that create all this music don't know the first thing about modes, but use them instinctively..

why??

because they just write what sounds cool..

Clarky

Intervals

An interval describes the distance between any two notes.
Different intervals have specific ‘names’ that describe these specific ‘distances’. Intervals are the fundamental building blocks of music.
All scales and chords can be described in terms of intervals.
Essentially, intervals are to music what an alphabet is to a written language.

The name of the interval is described with two parameters..

- The first parameter is the nature of the interval itself - minor, major, diminished, augmented, perfect, sharpened major, flattened minor.

- The second parameter is a numeric value that describes the distance between the note values themselves. Simply the distance between one note’s “letter” value and another note’s “letter” value.

‘A’ anything to ‘B’ anything = some kind of 2nd A - B , 1 - 2 so it is some kind of 2nd

note that the word 'anything' indicates that I do not care if the note is natural, sharp or flat.

‘A’ anything to ‘C’ anything = some kind of 3rd A - B - C, 1 - 2 - 3 so it is some kind of 3rd

‘A’ anything to ‘D’ anything = some kind of 4th
A - B - C - D, 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 so it is some kind of 4th

‘A’ anything to ‘E’ anything = some kind of 5th
A - B - C - D - E , 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 so it is some kind of 5th

‘A’ anything to ‘F’ anything = some kind of 6th
A - B - C - D - E - F , 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 so it is some kind of 6th

‘A’ anything to ‘G’ anything = some kind of 7th
A - B - C - D - E - F - G , 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 so it is some kind of 7th

1 semi-tone = 1 fret distance
The examples below show the names for each interval [the distance between one note and another].

1 semi-tone = minor 2nd
1 tone = major 2nd
1 1/2 tones = minor 3rd

2 tones = major 3rd

2 1/2 tones = perfect 4th 

3 tones = augmented 4th or a diminished 5th

3 1/2 tones = perfect 5th

4 tones = minor 6th or an augmented 5th

4 1/2 tones = major 6th

5 tones = minor 7th

5 1/2 tones = major 7th

6 tones = an octave

You'll notice that some of the intervals have more than one possible name. In fact they can all have multiple names [it's all about context, but I'll not go into that right now]. The main thing here is that the distance between any two notes has a name.

So why is this important?

when spelling [describing] scales and chords, you'd use intervals. this avoids having to get all tied up with sharps and flats and key etc. intervals are also a very powerful thing to be able to hear and then recognise. it's the killer component when developing aural perception.

bloodandtears

It's my understanding that the modes can be viewed as a major or minor scale with a number of notes displaced... these being the flavour notes.

i.e. because the Lydian mode is a Major mode, the Lydian scale can be seen as a Major scale with a #4 note.

and that generous use of the flavour notes in chords progressions and melodies will accentuate the modal feel.

Now if ths is correct then I rationalise that equally the following fits too..

Dorian : minor mode : #6 (when compared to minor scale) - raised 6th
Phrygian : minor mode : b2 (when compared to minor scale) - minor 2nd
Lydian : Major mode : #4 (when compared to Major 'Ionian' scale) - augmented 4th
Mixolydian : Major mode : b7 (when compared to Major scale) - minor 7th


or are all references intended to be made to the Major scale?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)#Mixolydian_.28V.29 is making sense at last!!!

MatthewShreddery

I hate modes.

Everyone seems to get into a right tizzy about them.

They are, for the most part, just sounds that we are all very familiar with, yet we confuse ourselves with all this talk of Mixolydian, Locrian, Modal Harmony etc etc.

GuyBoden

MatthewShreddery said:

I hate modes.

Everyone seems to get into a right tizzy about them.

They are, for the most part, just sounds that we are all very familiar with, yet we confuse ourselves with all this talk of Mixolydian, Locrian, Modal Harmony etc etc.

Modal Harmony

MatthewShreddery

What's your point? :-)

GuyBoden

MatthewShreddery said:

What's your point? :-)

Modal Harmony

Freebird

MatthewShreddery said:

I hate modes.

Everyone seems to get into a right tizzy about them.

They are, for the most part, just sounds that we are all very familiar with, yet we confuse ourselves with all this talk of Mixolydian, Locrian, Modal Harmony etc etc.

The chart in the OP was useful to me as I could play all the modes on a single string, and hear the different flavours without even knowing what notes I was playing.

ChrisMusic

Freebird said:   The chart in the OP was useful to me as I could play all the modes on a single string and hear the different flavours, without even knowing what notes I was playing.

That's the benefit of thinking in transferable intervals rather than fixed frequency notes.  I hope that makes sense !

Clarky

bloodandtears said:

It's my understanding that the modes can be viewed as a major or minor scale with a number of notes displaced... these being the flavour notes.

i.e. because the Lydian mode is a Major mode, the Lydian scale can be seen as a Major scale with a #4 note.

and that generous use of the flavour notes in chords progressions and melodies will accentuate the modal feel.

Now if ths is correct then I rationalise that equally the following fits too..

Dorian : minor mode : #6 (when compared to minor scale) - raised 6th
Phrygian : minor mode : b2 (when compared to minor scale) - minor 2nd
Lydian : Major mode : #4 (when compared to Major 'Ionian' scale) - augmented 4th
Mixolydian : Major mode : b7 (when compared to Major scale) - minor 7th


or are all references intended to be made to the Major scale?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)#Mixolydian_.28V.29 is making sense at last!!!

this is all true... note though that if someone does not fully understand intervals or the major and minor scales, all they nice info you've written won't mean much to them..

viz

Agreed. Also that's why I think it's better to call modes "scales", because although they're all modes of each other, the thing of PRIMARY importance is the notes within them, like others have said. So Dorian is not primarily "the 2nd mode of the major scale", it's "a minor scale but with a sharp 6th, like in Greensleeves". Ok, it's also the 2nd mode of the major scale. And it's also the 4th mode of the natural minor scale. But that's all secondary.