J Collingridge - a full report in progress.

Strat_a_tat_tat

digitalscream said:

VimFuego said:

erm, so it seems I missed all the fun, what form do these scams take?

Well, at the moment his favourite is the chargeback scam - buying loads of stuff for really small amounts using PayPal Gift, then cancelling it at his bank a couple of months later, thus getting around the fact that you can't cancel PPG payments and costing the seller £14 a time.

Unfortunately, he got sloppy and used his real name on his PayPal account...

I don't understand how that would work (mind you... I don't have a PP account... so maybe I'm being a bit thick).

digitalscream

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

digitalscream said:

VimFuego said:

erm, so it seems I missed all the fun, what form do these scams take?

Well, at the moment his favourite is the chargeback scam - buying loads of stuff for really small amounts using PayPal Gift, then cancelling it at his bank a couple of months later, thus getting around the fact that you can't cancel PPG payments and costing the seller £14 a time.

Unfortunately, he got sloppy and used his real name on his PayPal account...

I don't understand how that would work (mind you... I don't have a PP account... so maybe I'm being a bit thick).

It's pretty simple - for a start, paying by PPG is fee-free but doesn't give you any protection as a buyer (ie no enforced refunds). So...pay by PPG, wait a couple of months so that the seller has forgotten you, then instruct your bank to cancel the payments citing fraud or similar. You get all your money back, and the seller loses a load of money.

VimFuego

digitalscream said:

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

digitalscream said:

VimFuego said:

erm, so it seems I missed all the fun, what form do these scams take?

Well, at the moment his favourite is the chargeback scam - buying loads of stuff for really small amounts using PayPal Gift, then cancelling it at his bank a couple of months later, thus getting around the fact that you can't cancel PPG payments and costing the seller £14 a time.

Unfortunately, he got sloppy and used his real name on his PayPal account...

I don't understand how that would work (mind you... I don't have a PP account... so maybe I'm being a bit thick).

It's pretty simple - for a start, paying by PPG is fee-free but doesn't give you any protection as a buyer (ie no enforced refunds). So...pay by PPG, wait a couple of months so that the seller has forgotten you, then instruct your bank to cancel the payments citing fraud or similar. You get all your money back, and the seller loses a load of money.

thing is, this may work once or twice, but to do it enough to make it worthwhile you'd have to put in a load of fraud claims, surely your bank would get suspicious?

Bellycaster

@digitalscream ;

I was under the impression that if the buyer payed by Paypal Gift, then they had absolutely no chance of their money back, or have I misunderstood?

mellowsun

digitalscream said:

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

digitalscream said:

VimFuego said:

erm, so it seems I missed all the fun, what form do these scams take?

Well, at the moment his favourite is the chargeback scam - buying loads of stuff for really small amounts using PayPal Gift, then cancelling it at his bank a couple of months later, thus getting around the fact that you can't cancel PPG payments and costing the seller £14 a time.

Unfortunately, he got sloppy and used his real name on his PayPal account...

I don't understand how that would work (mind you... I don't have a PP account... so maybe I'm being a bit thick).

It's pretty simple - for a start, paying by PPG is fee-free but doesn't give you any protection as a buyer (ie no enforced refunds). So...pay by PPG, wait a couple of months so that the seller has forgotten you, then instruct your bank to cancel the payments citing fraud or similar. You get all your money back, and the seller loses a load of money.

I can't see how that can work - how can you cancel what is effectively a BACS transfer months after the fact?  How come people who accidentally transfer money to the wrong account (many cases of this in the press where people lose thousands) can't do the same?

digitalscream

mellowsun said:

digitalscream said:

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

digitalscream said:

VimFuego said:

erm, so it seems I missed all the fun, what form do these scams take?

Well, at the moment his favourite is the chargeback scam - buying loads of stuff for really small amounts using PayPal Gift, then cancelling it at his bank a couple of months later, thus getting around the fact that you can't cancel PPG payments and costing the seller £14 a time.

Unfortunately, he got sloppy and used his real name on his PayPal account...

I don't understand how that would work (mind you... I don't have a PP account... so maybe I'm being a bit thick).

It's pretty simple - for a start, paying by PPG is fee-free but doesn't give you any protection as a buyer (ie no enforced refunds). So...pay by PPG, wait a couple of months so that the seller has forgotten you, then instruct your bank to cancel the payments citing fraud or similar. You get all your money back, and the seller loses a load of money.

I can't see how that can work - how can you cancel what is effectively a BACS transfer months after the fact?  How come people who accidentally transfer money to the wrong account (many cases of this in the press where people lose thousands) can't do the same?

Well, normally it's done with Direct Debit, which is really difficult to cancel payments with. However, you can also pay with a credit card, at which point it's trivial to cancel months afterwards - especially if you claim that it was fraudulent.

vasselmeyer

So if you link  PP to your bank account rather than to a CC then it's more difficult for that scam to work?

digitalscream

vasselmeyer said:

So if you link  PP to your bank account rather than to a CC then it's more difficult for that scam to work?

Even if you do link it to your bank account, you can always add a credit card and still pay with that - and you can still run the scam.

Strat_a_tat_tat

digitalscream said:

vasselmeyer said:

So if you link  PP to your bank account rather than to a CC then it's more difficult for that scam to work?

Even if you do link it to your bank account, you can always add a credit card and still pay with that - and you can still run the scam.

I'm not up to date on this sort of stuff... but that sounds like an obvious loophole that I'd expect the banks to be sorting.

ToneControl

vasselmeyer said:

So if you link  PP to your bank account rather than to a CC then it's more difficult for that scam to work?

no, it would be the payer by CC that could cancel
If you were selling it makes no difference

digitalscream

ToneControl said:

vasselmeyer said:

So if you link  PP to your bank account rather than to a CC then it's more difficult for that scam to work?

no, it would be the payer by CC that could cancel
If you were selling it makes no difference

Yes, exactly - there's nothing that the seller can do to protect themselves from this.

Strat_a_tat_tat

digitalscream said:

ToneControl said:

vasselmeyer said:

So if you link  PP to your bank account rather than to a CC then it's more difficult for that scam to work?

no, it would be the payer by CC that could cancel
If you were selling it makes no difference

Yes, exactly - there's nothing that the seller can do to protect themselves from this.

Is this only the case for PPG... or could it apply to any CC transaction?

digitalscream

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

digitalscream said:

ToneControl said:

vasselmeyer said:

So if you link  PP to your bank account rather than to a CC then it's more difficult for that scam to work?

no, it would be the payer by CC that could cancel
If you were selling it makes no difference

Yes, exactly - there's nothing that the seller can do to protect themselves from this.

Is this only the case for PPG... or could it apply to any CC transaction?

Any CC transaction. The difference with PayPal (Gift or otherwise) is that there's an additional layer of abstraction - PayPal itself - between the buyer's bank and yours. PayPal is notoriously opaque when it comes to this sort of thing, and like their parent company eBay, side with the buyer by default.

If it was a direct bank-to-bank transfer of money (by credit card or otherwise), your bank would contact you directly to allow dispute resolution; PayPal just inform you that you're being charged because somebody rescinded their payment and your options are:

1 - Try to go through their dispute resolution process, which is basically impossible to navigate as a seller
2 - Suck it

That's why scammers for this method; they keep the amounts low enough that to defend the charges would cost more in time than they could ever get back. If PayPal weren't involved, then your bank would do most of the heavy lifting for you.

Short version: your bank is on your side as a seller, but PayPal isn't.

Strat_a_tat_tat

digitalscream said:

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

digitalscream said:

ToneControl said:

vasselmeyer said:

So if you link  PP to your bank account rather than to a CC then it's more difficult for that scam to work?

no, it would be the payer by CC that could cancel
If you were selling it makes no difference

Yes, exactly - there's nothing that the seller can do to protect themselves from this.

Is this only the case for PPG... or could it apply to any CC transaction?

Any CC transaction. The difference with PayPal (Gift or otherwise) is that there's an additional layer of abstraction - PayPal itself - between the buyer's bank and yours. PayPal is notoriously opaque when it comes to this sort of thing, and like their parent company eBay, side with the buyer by default.

If it was a direct bank-to-bank transfer of money (by credit card or otherwise), your bank would contact you directly to allow dispute resolution; PayPal just inform you that you're being charged because somebody rescinded their payment and your options are:

1 - Try to go through their dispute resolution process, which is basically impossible to navigate as a seller
2 - Suck it

That's why scammers for this method; they keep the amounts low enough that to defend the charges would cost more in time than they could ever get back. If PayPal weren't involved, then your bank would do most of the heavy lifting for you.

Short version: your bank is on your side as a seller, but PayPal isn't.

Thanks. Useful stuff to know.

boogieman

I take it this thread is active again because JCon has broken the agreement to stop scamming? What a twat. 

@digitalscream are you going to make his new usernames public? Might be useful to warn other forums that he's actively scamming again? 

digitalscream

boogieman said:

I take it this thread is active again because JCon has broken the agreement to stop scamming? What a twat. 

Yes (and yes).

boogieman said:

@digitalscream are you going to make his new usernames public? Might be useful to warn other forums that he's actively scamming again? 

Probably...depends where it goes. In this latest case, he was using a Facebook account in his own name (and on the PayPal account).

MtB

Blimey, a scam like this will only lead the perpetrator one way - the credit card companies will eventually get wise, I mean how many times can one account holder be the subject of fraud until the card company becomes suspicious? Then when they realise the scam they'll remove the account holder's card and credit rating (which is available to all financial providers).

ICBM

MtB said:

Blimey, a scam like this will only lead the perpetrator one way - the credit card companies will eventually get wise, I mean how many times can one account holder be the subject of fraud until the card company becomes suspicious? Then when they realise the scam they'll remove the account holder's card and credit rating (which is available to all financial providers).

That's a good point.

Is there any way of tipping them off?

bingefeller

digitalscream said:

VimFuego said:

erm, so it seems I missed all the fun, what form do these scams take?

Well, at the moment his favourite is the chargeback scam - buying loads of stuff for really small amounts using PayPal Gift, then cancelling it at his bank a couple of months later, thus getting around the fact that you can't cancel PPG payments and costing the seller £14 a time.

Unfortunately, he got sloppy and used his real name on his PayPal account...

He never was the sharpest tool (quite literally) in the box. 

Heartfeltdawn

As copied to Digitalscream via PM and so I'll put the word out here publicly. 

--------------------------------------------

Possible JC alert... 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/marlemo6/m.html?_trksid=p3692

New user. Typical shit username. If you check the Zoom G3X listing he has, the picture has been nicked from this listing HERE. 

The Focusrite Forte listing is a nicked picture HERE

and the Akai EIE Pro listing is also a nicked picture HERE. 

All the listings are well underpriced. A Forte is generally £150 to £200 s/h. 

Why do I think it's him? I tried to buy the EHX B9 he was selling using my personal Ebay account. The system wouldn't let me buy it, saying that the seller had blocked me from bidding on their auctions! JC knows my personal account. He's bought stuff from me in the past in order to get my address so he could get the police to contact me.

So I logged in with my business account and bought it from there  I'm prepared to take the risk of losing £70. Ebay refunded me in the past and I am sure they will this time. 

Absolutely 100% sure it's him. There's no way a new user would start by blocking people. It has to be someone I've had dealings with before, and he is the obvious candidate.