Throwing away the rule book?!?!?

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Tinkering with the following chord progression: | Dm7 | G | A | A |  ... sounds nice to my ear on a slow synth setting on "Chordbot", a cool android app for looping chords.

After a while noodling over it, I decided to then try theorise it out.

So to my ear, at least, there is a strong resolution to the key of A.
And spelling out my chords...
Dm7 :- D, F, A, C
G   :- G, B, D
A   :- A, C#, E
... I could see that whilst it sounds cool to me.. it flies in the face of any diatonic progression or scale that I'm aware of.  

My workings lead me to spot the C# suggested the D major scale held some clues...
D,E,F#,G,A,B,C#,D
... and that with the perceived key of A resolution perhaps A mixolydian mode variant was being utilised.
Now had the opening chord of the progression been Dmaj7, thus bringing in the F# and C#, we'd be back on safe diatonic ground; but it doesn't.

So going out on a limb here, is it fair to say that this modulates from A minor (C Major) to A mixolydian (D Major)?

As an aside, I'm thoroughly enjoying this journey in theory, although my learning is totally unstructured, I reckon whilst its cool to know some of this stuff, sometimes you should just relax and trust your ear ;-)

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  • Those chords are from D minor melodic.
    For me, it's not the C# that is interesting but the B natural in the G chord that really makes things fruity.

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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    First thing I'd explore is which sounds better Amaj7 or A7 - even if you're not going to use the bigger chord it'll give you more information about the progression.
    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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  • MegiiMegii Frets: 1670
    To my ears, the Dm then G sounds like chords ii and V in C major. The ear is kind of expecting a C chord after that, but instead there is an A - OK this is not diatonic to the key of C, but it is the V of Dm, so it takes you back to the beginning of the progression nicely.
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  • I had thought that the D melodic minor was a potential candidate, especially if I dropped the 7th note from the opening Dm7 chord...

    ..but if the 7th chord stays, the C note adds confusion to the mix.. and the D melodic minor doesn't suggest an A key sig tonality...


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  • One scale will not always fit every chord in a progression.

    Don;t try to force one scale on your progression.
    It's in Dminor. This doesn't mean every note in an D minor scale will work over all the chords, all of the time. It just tells you what is 'home' and how the rest of the notes and chords relate to that.

    Chromatically altering a chord gives a progression some spice, opening up opportunities for other sounds to be used. This helps things not to sound too vanilla.
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  • Ok.. I get all that.. but I still hear A as 'home' not D ;-)
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited April 2015
    So do I - but I can make it the dm too - it depends on what rhythm you have in your head. The bars you wrote point towards A because it's unusual for something to end on the dominant. The chords fit the Hindu scale in A very well, or actually the first thing I had in my mind was basically something akin to a tierce de picardie, making a major of the tonic A.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • tierce de picardie...  aka a Picardy third...  love it.. make it so!

    I've heard this in many a ballad, in particular I think Journey's Loved By You.
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  • No idea how you guys are hearing A as home :)
    I thought a picardy 3rd was only on the tonic chord.
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  • An static bass line of A works a treat beneath the chords.... D doesn't work for my ear for the bars I wrote
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    No idea how you guys are hearing A as home :)
    I thought a picardy 3rd was only on the tonic chord.

    It is - for me it's on the A, which is the tonic. I think you're hearing it like something like Twist and Shout, but in d minor key, whereas I initially had it as a sort of Still Got the Blues (with some chords missing but it's the best I can think of) in a minor, but actually doing a tierce de picardie so that a minor (tonic) becomes A major at the end. Or like Arvo Pärt's Fratres but finishing on the major.

    Though I have to confess, now I've got twist and shout's rhythm going round, I can't get d minor as the root out of my head!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • I might understand you thinking A was the tonic if the chord progression began on an A of some sort but it doesn't.
    It starts on D minor.
    This makes your ear (well, mine at least) hear Dm as the Tonic.

    Your Twist and Shout example doesn't mean anything to me; if I played D G A (twist and shout) I'd say that was in D, not A.
    The A is the V chord: The "Aaaaaahhhhh aaaaaahhhhhh aaaaahhhhhhhh aaaaahhhhhhh" bit is a dominant 7 arpeggio.

    :)


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  • good example with the twist and shout reference. .. but the difference between the d major vs d minor 7th change it from a very pop happy vibe to a softer feel to me....

    Btw... babooshka !!!
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited April 2015
    I might understand you thinking A was the tonic if the chord progression began on an A of some sort but it doesn't.
    It starts on D minor.
    This makes your ear (well, mine at least) hear Dm as the Tonic.

    Your Twist and Shout example doesn't mean anything to me; if I played D G A (twist and shout) I'd say that was in D, not A.
    The A is the V chord: The "Aaaaaahhhhh aaaaaahhhhhh aaaaahhhhhhhh aaaaahhhhhhh" bit is a dominant 7 arpeggio.

    :)



    Lol yeah mate, I was agreeing with you on the twist and shout. It's very natural. I was coming round to your way of thinking, not disagreeing with you, do you see what i mean now? Hearing it again, I hear it more and more like the twist and shout, where the D is the tonic. I'm just saying that I didn't stumble across that first time, I sumbled across the the other alternative like Still Got the Blues, which, as I'm sure you know, is in a minor, despite starting on the d minor. It starts on the IV. Not like parisienne walkways.

    Btw I find it interesting that a 2/4 or 4/4 rhythm seems to favour the d minor as the tonic and the 6/8 favours the A minor (or major) as the tonic.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    edited April 2015
    It's in D minor.

    Minor harmony is much more interesting than Major Harmony, as you probably already know, the three basic scales to choose from are: Natural minor, Harmonic minor and Melodic minor. You can combine any or all of the three minor harmony types. Create the basic chords by stacking every third note of each scale.

    Your progression:
    Dmin7 : D F A C  (the one chord from Natural minor harmony)
    G : G B D               (the four chord from Melodic minor harmony. A subdominant chord)
    A : A C# E              (the five chord from Melodic and Harmonic minor harmony. (For Jazzier, add 7th and an added b9 in the chord?))

    Using minor harmony, it's a  I IV V (1-4-5) progression.

    Even without any theory and just using my ear, I'm hearing D minor as the tonic because:

    "A" Chord     :- A, C#, E
    "Dm7"  Chord  :- D, F, A, C

    The "A" chord will pull towards resolving to Dm7 because:

    1.) The notes A down to D is a perfect fifth, the strongest resolution by human ear.
    2.) The notes C# to C is a semi tone, semi tones are the other very strong resolution movement.
    3.) The notes E to F is another semi tone, yet another very strong resolution movement.


    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • Fair enough...  in my progression..

    Dm7, G, A x 2...  I still hear A.. but agree that a D melodic minor is "best fit"... I guess I should record what I'm jamming to and see what you guys think too...
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    edited April 2015
    To keep it simple, I'd forget about the "C" note in the Dmin7,  I'd just use the notes D, F, A for the chord and then it's easier to solo/improv just using the D melodic minor.  But, try to outline some of each chord's notes in your melody, so it seems you know what you're playing.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5723
    If I was playing over that I would probably think in terms of D Dorian.  Would really have to hear it first but that's what would come in to my mind.  
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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    GuyBoden said:
    It's in D minor.
    The saddest key of all.
    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733


    If I was playing over that I would probably think in terms of D Dorian.  Would really have to hear it first but that's what would come in to my mind.  
    Avoiding playing a "C" in "D Dorian" over the "C#" in AMaj?

    Try to outline some of each chord's notes in your melody, so it seems you know what you're playing?
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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