Your PA

Jalapeno

Separates.  Phonic Powerpod mixer/amp 375w/channel, Behringer mixer (Euromix with 6 Aux Outs - for IEM). Some Gear4Music Collings 400w speakers. Thomann IEM x4 - on the to-get list if we ever gig more than once every couple of years is a set of limiters (for the IEMs) and decent DIs.

Not that we are gigging much anymore. It's band collectively owned.  We used to overpay for rehersals and pool any gig money to accumulate bits - we started with the PowerPod and a coupe of speakers (we now have far too many speakers as they were also monitors that we don't use any more).

We bought our lights the same way.

Anybody in the band wants to use it for something they can, they break it they replace it (with something better ).

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

I'd like to do the PA thing but with work and guitar I don't have much time right now. You've seen the band - I dno't think we'll be doing anything too complex, PA-wise. 

So the speakers in the stagePAS600 are 340W each. If we have monitors that will cut the power we can give them. But you reckon 680W total power for speakers is ok for a pub gig, that's a good sort of metric? There must be a guide online as to required power for specific venue. 

Honestly - the stagePAS looks simple enough, light enough, and relatively cheap. I reckon the band would go for it if it will do - and hopefully it has enough headroom (like you say, more is better).

200-300W for vocals is plenty for a pub gig. Bands used to use amps of that sort of power twenty years ago. More than that gives you more control, probably better sound, and the option of running more bandwidth-hungry instruments (eg keyboards) through it. Don't put drums through it without extra subs though.

Keep the Gear4Music and use it to drive a pair of passive monitors - that way you get all the power of the Yamaha for out front, and a separate GEQ for the monitors, even if only a basic one. Also work out an emergency set-up which goes back to using it for the main PA (through the Yamaha speakers) in the unlikely event of the Yamaha amp going down. Backup without carrying extra gear is a good thing...

thomasross20

I think they're wanting top sell the gear4music one to help fun a second-hand stagePAS600 they've seen for £350.... Money seems to be of importance here. 300W for pub gig - good metric, thank you!

I agree abuot some sort of backup - if we got the stagePAS would have to figure out what we'd do if it went down.

Thanks, jalapeno - good to see what other people are using.

thomasross20

I e-mailed both Andertons and guitarguitar and they said the stagePAS600 wouldn't be loud enough for our 6-piece???

Andertons recommend one of these:

http://www.andertons.co.uk/complete-pa-systems/pid20538/cid632/mackie-thump-12-38-profx8-complete-pa-package.asp

http://www.andertons.co.uk/complete-pa-systems/pid29542/cid632/electrovoice-complete-zlx-pa-system-with-12-speakers.asp

ICBM

Having heard your band, they're wrong and are just trying to screw you for more money.

Your Gear4Music was actually just about loud enough, and what's that - 100W?

It's pointless selling it - it's worth bugger all and is far more valuable as a monitor driver and backup.

thomasross20

We weren't using the gear4music before - we were using another band's PA.... and I hope to hear the details of what that was soon!

The gear4music is 300W total - not enough IMO. 

The band are agreeing (so far) to £50 each - which falls way short. I can't quite believe it - even if they stretched to £100 each we could almost buy the stagePAS600 new! £100 - seriously!! 

But anyway... you think the stagePAS600 will be enough. That's what I want to hear. 

ICBM

I can't believe you think 300W isn't enough for a pub gig with just vocals going through it. I've gigged in plenty of pubs with less power than that, and with more going through it - and in a six-piece with five vocals, electric and acoustic guitars, keyboards, bass and mic'ed percussion *all* going through the PA, with only a 400W power amp and it was more than adequate. Admittedly with *big* speakers.

At the volume you were playing at when I came along, 100-150W would do the job.

Are you sure the Gear4Music is a *genuine* 300W? Not "peak music power" or some other bullshit?

Danny1969

What kind of venues do you play ? I mean some of the pubs I play in only hold about 100 people but quite a few of them hold 250 to 300 and that little PAS600 would be useless unless the singer whats to sound like the first Strokes record

The watts rating actually means very little, it's the SPL that's more useful. Some good PA systems are incredibly efficient in the SPL they can throw within their rated power. 

A typical good pub system is a couple of SRM450's or similar and a bin or 2. I wouldn't bother with anything less than that unless you know all the vanues will be very small

thomasross20

ICBM, I don't really have a gauge for this. I know... I'm an electronics engineer! But I don't do audio - I design micropower chips lol! Not sure about the gear4music - to be honest I'm not keen on using it at all. 

Danny - pub gigs with 100 people TOPS, I reckon. 

OK, Andertons said the Yamaha wouldn't be enough, as you know. Guitarguitar Glasgow said the same. 

Guitarguitar Edinburgh think it should be ok. 

Danny1969

If you were gonna do 70mph for 3 hours every day would you pick a car that's comfortable at 70 but could do 100mph without breaking or would you pick one that top'ed out around 80mph ?

thomasross20

I know what you're saying, honestly I do... I'm struggling to get them to commit more than £50 as it is thought!

Half tempted to pay for the whole thing myself but stuff that!

EDIT! Turnaround fro guitarguitar Edinburgh. I told them two vox, one guitar and keyboard will go through PA. THey say stagePAS wont be enough and recommended these:

http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/pa-live/detail.asp?stock=10031211410213

http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/pa-live/detail.asp?stock=14071516430510

EricTheWeary

Markgak was very helpfull looking at PA options at different price points with my son, not trying to oversell. If you can get hold of @yoseph he might do similar.
There are used bargains to be had as well but you have to know what you're looking for, IMHO.

Gassage

5mm but looking to go for 8mm soon

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

If you were gonna do 70mph for 3 hours every day would you pick a car that's comfortable at 70 but could do 100mph without breaking or would you pick one that top'ed out around 80mph ?

I would chose based on the rest of the spec since both will do the required speed perfectly well.

thomasross20 said:

EDIT! Turnaround fro guitarguitar Edinburgh. I told them two vox, one guitar and keyboard will go through PA. THey say stagePAS wont be enough and recommended these:

Unless the speakers are ludicrously inefficient or the 600W is a joke based on "peak instantaneous music power" or some other such nonsense, there is no way that won't be loud enough for a pub with 100 people in it.

Seriously, I've gigged with *much* smaller amounts of power than that in small rooms and with a fair amount going through it, and the limiting factor is not the power of the PA - it's feedback and the tolerance of the management.

I understand where Danny is coming from because he's doing the "whole mix" thing, but for a mostly old-school set-up, you really do not need that much power.

In my opinion.

More than twenty years ago you would find almost no band in a pub using more than 300W, that's how powerful the biggest mixer heads were - many were only 100-200W. It was only when things like the Spirit Powerstation came out that it became common to use more.

It sounds like you can't afford the kind of rig the shops are trying to push at you anyway - if you like I'll put you in touch with someone who has a lot of old-school kit and would probably be happy to do a hire/trial with a view to buy.

thomasross20

Thanks all!

Maybe I should have said to the guys at guitarguitar that it's guitar OR keyboard into mixer - not both at the same time. I wish you could just TRY that exact bit of kit prior to purchase because how are you meant to really know without a baptism of fire? 

EDIT - finally found out the PA we went through before was 350W per channel, so 700W total.

thomasross20

Turns out the guy at the studio we practice at uses the stagepro300 for gigs and concurs with ICBM that the 600 should be more than enough for the gigs we're doing. And thanks for the pm, ICBM - forwarded to the band!

thomasross20

Might be getting a Yamaha emx-88s for free.. trying it out tomorrow.

koneguitarist

Yet again, I agree with @ICBM bands too often get told you need bins, separate tops, power amps and mixers with graphics, Xovers etc, and they are doing pubs, it's not needed. 

 Get a simple set up, learn how to use it, not just turn volumes up and hope for best.

The band needs to be able to play consistently, if your drummer turns into a raging animal after 3rd song and lead player thinks I can drown him out, get a sound man and hire for every gig! 

If however you can play to natural volume of drummer and he is not ridiculously loud, then all you need is vocals to be clear, and band to play to that and no more. 

Last night I was playing a large marquee/beer tent to about 3-4hundred people, I knew that my RCF310A will get vocals across, but rest of band would need some help so I borrowed a pair of Mackie subs and with keys and Bass drum through there, we had plenty of punch for the gig. 

Now that's about 5% of our gigs need that extra power, rest of time the vocal and acoustic only PA is fine for what is required. 

The only issue you have in large areas, especially long rooms is the Active PA speakers I feel don't throw sound as far as the old passive speakers and power amp combinations. I generally do not like the sound of the the old EV sx300 tops up close for pub and small venues, but when you need that long throw they really come into their own. No one set up is ideal for every band, so you need to think about size of venues, that you will play at regularly not the once in a blue moon gig. 

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

Might be getting a Yamaha emx-88s for free.. trying it out tomorrow.

That's a good bit of kit, and if you're getting it for free then there's even less reason to sell the Gear4Music. I can't repeat often enough that a just-about-OK backup is worth far more on the day your main amp decides to go on strike than the pitiful amount of money you will get for it if you try to sell it.

If the others insist on getting rid of it, buy it yourself - all you need to add is a cheap single PA cab and you'll have a usable acoustic guitar rig as well.

PolarityMan

koneguitarist said:

Yet again, I agree with @ICBM bands too often get told you need bins, separate tops, power amps and mixers with graphics, Xovers etc, and they are doing pubs, it's not needed. 

 Get a simple set up, learn how to use it, not just turn volumes up and hope for best.

The band needs to be able to play consistently, if your drummer turns into a raging animal after 3rd song and lead player thinks I can drown him out, get a sound man and hire for every gig! 

I think the problem is the average volume. If we wanted to go full PA we would absolutely need a more involved setup as our 2 tops can barely put just the vocals loud enough let alone putting anything else through them.

The culprit is of course the drums but I do have some sympathy as it's pretty hard to play some styles quietly.

My favourite sound quality wise is playing dedicated venues with monster PA's but the originals showcase type gigs are pretty balls from every other perspective unfortunately.