Learning the cycle of 4ths / 5ths

frank1985

So I'm learning to play my way through the major scale in 4ths and 5ths using triad inversions. 

My current method of making sense of the progression is to memorize the intervals which make up the 4ths/5ths, not in note order, but in terms of the position of the root notes in relation to each other on the fretboard, as well as the order in which the major and minor chords are played. 

So for example, when playing in 4ths from the key of B, I would run through the following thought process as I play through the chord progression...

1...Major 

Next is '4'; 4 is major so jump up a fourth to next fret/5th string and play major chord

4...Major 

Next one is '7'; 7 is diminished so jump up a fourth to the 6th string and play minor chord with flattened 5th

7...Diminished

Next one is '3'; 3 is minor so move up two frets and play the minor chord with its root on the 4th string.

3...minor

etc. etc. 

6...minor

2...minor

5...major

1...major

Is it okay to work like this, rather than memorize everything in note order? I could learn all notes in one key, but then there is the issue of memorizing the note names in every key. To me it seems more intuitive to learn the physical positioning of the intervals on the fretboard, and to determine whether a chord is major or minor depending on its position in the progression. 

If I did decide to memorize the notes, what is the quickest, most fool proof way of determining the notes of the cycle of 4th/5ths in every key? 

frankus

Draw it as a clock face at north, east, south, west - write CAFE. now put a 'b' next to the e and a # next to the f.  That's your first cycle of minor thirds - a square.

then fill the gaps clockwise G and D, E and B  remember BEAD ...   and from the C anti-clockwise F Bb  and Ab Db.

for any major scale find the root note on the cycle... got anti-clockwise 1 and clockwise 5 and you've all the notes in a major scale.

Melodic and Harmonic minor modes are characterised by broken arcs around the cycle - I can't remember them as this method didn't work for me. good luck.

viz

For sharps it's Father Charles goes down and ends battle; for flats it's Battle ends and down goes Charles's father. The sharps occur on each scale's leading note, so the circle is the letter after each sharp (and starting with an initial C, which has no sharps) - so C, G (1 sharp), D (2 sharps), A (3 sharps), etc. on "ends", we are at F, but it's F# or Gb. All the remaining notes are black notes, and you can go round the circle again in #s, (F#, C#, etc), or back down the flat one backwards from Gb, Db, etc

Here are some of the Co5s that I made, one for the standard scales (Ionian & Aeolian), one for the sharpened modes (Lydian & Dorian), and one for the flattened modes (Mixolydian & Phrygian).

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/circle%20of%20fifths_zps3xxgbkl1.png

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/circle%20of%20fifths%20lydian_zpslv44kw2t.png

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/circle%20of%20fifths%20mixolydian_zps3lbon1vs.png

GuyBoden

viz said:

For sharps it's Father Charles goes down and ends battle; for flats it's Battle ends and down goes Charles's father. The sharps occur on each scale's leading note, so the circle is the letter after each sharp (and starting with an initial C, which has no sharps) - so C, G (1 sharp), D (2 sharps), A (3 sharps), etc. on "ends", we are at F, but it's F# or Gb. All the remaining notes are black notes, and you can go round the circle again in #s, (F#, C#, etc), or back down the flat one backwards from Gb, Db, etc

Yes, many moons ago, I think I learned them by using something similar, this:

In key cycle, the sharp is always the 7th note of the scale, plus the other sharps from the previous key:

G Major has F#
D Major has C#  plus F#
A Major has G#, plus F#,C#
E Major has D#, plus F#,C#, G#
B Major has A#, plus F#,C#, G#, D#
etc.........................................................................

In key cycle, the flat is always the 4th note of the scale, plus the other flats from the previous key:

F   Major has Bb (4th)
Bb Major has Eb, plus Bb
Eb Major has Ab, plus Bb, Eb
Ab Major has Db, plus Bb, Eb, Ab
Db Major has Gb, plus Bb, Eb, Ab, Db
Gb Major has Cb, plus Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
etc.........................................................................

Brad

I actually found it easier to learn all this away from the instrument. The nature of the guitar made it difficult for me. There are no short cuts, just plenty of patience. An interesting thing I noticed was to think of the number 7.

C - no # or b

G  has 1 #, Gb has 6 b's (1 + 6 = 7)

D  has 2 #'s, Db has 5 b's (2 + 5 = 7) 

A  has 3 #'s, Ab has 4 b's (3 + 4 = 7)

E has 4 #'s, Eb has 3 b's (4 + 3 = 7)

B has 5 #'s, Bb has 2 b's (5 +2 + 7)

F# has 6 #'s, F has 1 b (6 + 1 = 7)

To find the notes of a flat key, naturalise the the sharp notes and flatten the natural notes (Or rather flatten every note by a semi-tone). To learn the sharp key notes from a flat key, raise the flat notes a semi-tone and the sharpen the natural notes (raise everything a semi-tone).

A major = A B C# D E F# G#

Ab Maj  = Ab Bb C Db Eb F G

This works best if you know a few keys pretty well as it's probably not the best way to get into it. Just a little interesting quirk I noticed in addition to the other comments :-)

JAYJO

GuyBoden said:

viz said:

For sharps it's Father Charles goes down and ends battle; for flats it's Battle ends and down goes Charles's father. The sharps occur on each scale's leading note, so the circle is the letter after each sharp (and starting with an initial C, which has no sharps) - so C, G (1 sharp), D (2 sharps), A (3 sharps), etc. on "ends", we are at F, but it's F# or Gb. All the remaining notes are black notes, and you can go round the circle again in #s, (F#, C#, etc), or back down the flat one backwards from Gb, Db, etc

Yes, many moons ago, I think I learned them by using something similar, this:

In key cycle, the sharp is always the 7th note of the scale, plus the other sharps from the previous key:

G Major has F#
D Major has C#  plus F#
A Major has G#, plus F#,C#
E Major has D#, plus F#,C#, G#
B Major has A#, plus F#,C#, G#, D#
etc.........................................................................

In key cycle, the flat is always the 4th note of the scale, plus the other flats from the previous key:

F   Major has Bb (4th)
Bb Major has Eb, plus Bb
Eb Major has Ab, plus Bb, Eb
Ab Major has Db, plus Bb, Eb, Ab
Db Major has Gb, plus Bb, Eb, Ab, Db
Gb Major has Cb, plus Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
etc.........................................................................

Re The sharps diagram.
Flat them for modal formula
ie   G Mixolydian mode   (b7)
      D Dorian Mode b3 b7  etc etc

frank1985

Thanks for all your responses...there's a lot to take in here, so I've bookmarked this page. 

frank1985

Does anyone know of any books on voice leading through natural-minor triads? I'm currently working my way through chris buono's truefire course on voice leading through the major triads in 4ths, 5ths, linearly etc., but he doesn't seem to have anything for the natural minor scale. I could probably figure it out myself, but I like to have a little structure...

viz

An easy way for you to remember the circle of fifths:

C (for CIRCLE)

Then pluck the strings of a 5-string bass from top to bottom:

G

D

A

E

B

Then down-tune by 1 semitone and pluck the same strings:

Gb

Db

Ab

Eb

Bb

F (for FIFTHS)

Phil_aka_Pip

The cycles of Fifths and Fourths made no sense until Alan Limbrick got us to do this exercise at The Guitar Institute:

Start with C major, take all its modes. Which ones are the closest in form to the major scale? The 5th and the 4th mode (they each are only one note different). What tweak would you apply to each to make it a major scale? Sharpen the 7th degree of the 5th mode, flatten the 4th degree of the 4th mode. Now you have new major scales (G, and F). Take their modes. Repeat the process.

That's how you get the cycles of 5ths and 4ths. Parroting them is pointless. To understand what they are and why they are the way they are, generate them from first principles using simple rules.

handsomerik

Thanks for that phil. I always wondered what their purpose was. Any other reasons to learn them??

viz

Some people find it useful, some don't. I find it pretty essential but that's me - I like that stuff. It can tell you things like which keys have sharps and flats, what those sharps and flats are, which chords are the dominants of which, which barre chords lie on the same barre, quite a few useful things. It can help you understand how Hey Joe works and why if you play it using barre chords your hand moves up the fretboard in a certain way. But ultimately it's a bit like an alaphabet, more useful if you're reading or writing music than if you're not. To a classical musician it's second nature, musicians don't even think about it, it's just base knowledge like 2+2=4. And they subconsciously use the information within it whenever they look at a piece - they glance at the key signature and immediately know what key it's in, a fact that is just completely inherent within the circle of 5ths framework. To a practising rock musician though it could be completely irrelevant. Depends a bit on whether the mechanics of music interests you, or just the art and technique. It's like learning the alphabet is pretty important if you want to read a book, but not necessary for speaking.

Talking of Hey Joe by the way, one way I used to get it under my skin was to play C G D A E in Hey Joe style, but then finish with a dominant chord (B), as if about to start again, but then start the song again but this time starting on F# (or Gb), half an octave away from the original, and do another Hey Joe in Bb - ie., Gb Db Ab Eb Bb, then add another dominant chord, the dominant of Bb which is F, then be ready to start the normal Hey Joe again on the C.

Thus you've gone through the 12 chords in the cycle of 5ths, but all you've done is play two rounds of Hey Joe + dominant chord, in E and in Bb. It's such an easy way to remember it. If you want to!

viz

If anyone is interested in what the circle of fifths actually is, and why it's so powerful, I'll have a go at explaining it. Probably best to look at a piano for the next 5 minutes. And read Mr Boden's And Pip's posts above.

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/Mobile Uploads/image_zpsdusymgxr.jpg

In western diatonic music, as you advance from one major key to the next in 5ths (going clockwise round the circle) you sharpen an additional note. And as you go anticlockwise you flatten a note.

So from C, which has no sharps or flats, if you play the major scale, you notice that the penultimate note, the B, is a semitone below the C. That's important. One of the necessary elements of a major scale is that it has a semitone just before the root. (It's called the 'leading note' and it's one of the reasons why the dominant chord leads so strongly to the root, because a dominant chord contains the root's leading note. Anyway, that's beside the by).

Then if you go up a 5th from C, to that dominant, which is G, and play the G major scale, when you come to the penultimate note, you can't play the F natural, you have to SHARPEN it, otherwise you haven't got a semitone leading note, and you're just playing mixolydian, like Pip says. So, G major has 1 sharp, the F#.

Now go up another 5th, and you're on D. Play D major, you notice that you still have to have an F# (so that the 3rd is a major 3rd), but you also need a C#, to get that semitone leading note. So D major has 2 sharps, the F# and the C#.

And so on. Every step round the circle introduces one more sharp than the previous key, and those new sharps are the note names below the key in question (so F# is just below G, etc - because F# is G's leading note). That's why it's fundamental to anyone looking at a sheet of music. On the left, it will show say 3 sharps, the F#, C# and G#, in that order. So the musician will say - 3 sharps, therefore the piece is in A major, which has 3 sharps, including that leading note, the G#. (Or it's in f# minor, which is the relative of A major and has the same number of sharps.)

In classical theory lessons, you learn this sequence early on by the mnemonic "Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle". Those are the 7 sharps in order. C has no sharps, G has the first sharp (Father, F#), etc. (Notice how the Father Charles thing tells you the number of sharps, AND the keys in sequence, with an offset of 2 words.)


If you go ANTICLOCKWISE, the whole thing happens in a different way. You're going down a 5th, which is the same as going up a 4th, which is how most musicians think of it.

So you start on C. Play C major. This time, instead of concentrating on the leading note, concentrate on the 4th note. In this case, it's F. Notice that it's a semitone above the note before, the major 3rd, the E. It's not sharpened to an F#. that would make it a Lydian scale as Pip mentioned. so C has no flats, because the F is already close to that E.

Now, go to that 4th, the F, and play F major scale. Notice that when you get to the 4th, the B, you have to play a B flat. Otherwise you play an F Lydian scale. So, F major has 1 flat, a Bb.

Now go up a 4th, to that Bb, and play Bb major; you notice that the 4th, the E, has to be flattened, so Bb major has two flats, the Bb itself, and the Eb. And Eb major has 3 flats, the Bb, the Eb and the Ab.

So every time you go up a 4th, you add a flat. The way to remember the flats is BEAD. Bb, Eb, Ab, Db. But that's only the first 4. You can also remember it by saying Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles' Father. Amazing hey? So if you look at a sheet of music with 4 flats, that tells you that the 4th flat is the flattened 4th of the key, so the piece is in the key of the flat before - so Ab major (or its relative minor, f minor). Ab has 4 flats, the Bb, Eb, Ab, Db.

Classical musicians don't go round the whole circle, they go clockwise from C to handle the sharps, down to B (which has 5 sharps) or F# (which has 6 sharps), or very rarely to C# which has all 7, including the B# of Battle) and they go anticlockwise to manage the flats, down to the Db of BEAD, sometimes to Gb (which has 5 flats) and extremely rarely to Cb (which has 6 flats). Once you reach Gb however, which is enharmonic with F#, you're into the reducing sharps territory anyway, and it's easier to describe keys with fewer accidentals. So the switchover point tends to be at F#, though not always.

So the circle of 5ths is basically a musical alphabet and is the foundation of everything you need to know about the building blocks of music theory.

Phil_aka_Pip

The cycles of 4ths and 5th also help you to decode key signatures (assuming they are written properly).

The last sharp in a key signature is always the leading note of the major scale that the key signature denotes.
The last flat in a key signature is always the subdominant of the major scale that the key signature denotes.

@viz is of course accurate & helpful, but Alan Limbrick's treatment of the subject helped me with the question of WHY GO UP A FIFTH from C? Why not some other interval? What's so special about 5ths? IMO the answer is because you're looking for a way to make a new major scale out of something derived from a major scale you've already got, by applying (consistently) one simple tweak. Similar applies to 4ths. You can't do that with other intervals.

viz

Yep lol that's what I meant. ) as usual you have managed to say in a few words what I tried to say in 10 paragraphs!

Blueingreen

Just skimming the thread one trick I find useful doesn't appear to have been mentioned.  It gives you the cycle of 4ths and 5ths and a quick way of working out key signatures from your basic fretboard knowledge.

You  need to know the names of the notes on the 5th and 6th strings - if you don't it's very basic, necessary knowledge and you should learn them.

For cycle of 4ths start on C, 6th string fret 8.  Go to the same fret on the 5th string.  That's F. Go back to the 6th string and DOWN 2 frets. Bb.  Repeat this simple pattern - 6th string, up to the 5th string, back down 2 frets on the 6th - and you get the cycle of fourths, C, F, Bb, Eb and so on. Key signatures - No flats, one flat, 2 flats etc.

For the cycle of 5ths I start on C at the 3rd fret on the 5th string.  This time the pattern is same fret 6th string (G) then UP two frets (D).  Repeat the pattern for the cycle of 5ths.  C,G,D,A etc - no sharps, one sharp, two sharps etc.

frankus

If you draw a cycle of fifths then mark out the notes of the open strings on a guitar - you get this:

 

That's right, just thinking about cycles of fifths is invoking the devil.

viz

^

thomasross20

Hahahahahah @frankus' post. 

Great replies here - thus I have nothing to add!

Can't say I use it "on the fly" too much - it's more like background knowledge for me. One is for identifying keys (though they really should be internalised without having to think about the cycles of fifths/fourths) and second is for composition (in particular modulation).

carlos

I learned them by singing this in school
Si mi la re sol do fa

Fa do sol re la mi si

fnpt

@viz Stupid question: how do you know which chords are major or minor when you follow the circle?

In the case of Hey Joe, you use the ionian circle and all the chords in the song are in fact major, but is it always the case? Is it the other way around when you use the Lydian/ dorian circle, i.e., all minor chords?