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Train wreck, Dumble etc

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  • hywelghywelg Frets: 4302
    The thing about these high value amps and the high cost clones, is that they are most often bought by player who knows who (in playing terms) they are, they have their playing style sorted, they are the ones who are searching for the last 1% of tone, response etc. Most (and I am making assumptions about forum members playing abilities here), on here would likely hate the way a Dumble will reveal the flaws in a players technique, but thats what a good player is searching for often, the ability of an amp to truly reflect what the fingers and head are trying to portray.

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  • martinwmartinw Frets: 2149
    tFB Trader

    Here's my theory:

    Left to us Brits, these things (Dumbles and TWs) wouldn't have the value that they do in the US. We don't 'do amps' over here in the same way they 'do amps' in the US. There's a much smaller market for high end amps here, as compared with high end guitars. I'm generalising of course, but I'd say the interest in that kind of sound amongst the typical UK guitar player is far lower. Even amongst the membership of this board, which IMO is a self-selecting and untypical group. In contrast look at the number of small amp companies in the US....there's thousands of them!

    My theory as to why is to do with predominant musical styles, and the equipment needed for them, creating a culture in America of guitar playing that regards amps as vital tone shapers, part of the instrument. We seem to be a lot more 'rock' over here, less interested in the subtleties of various different 'not-quite-clean' sounds and such.

    When I think of a typical British guitar player, he's a guy playing classic rock in a pub, or playing indie with lots of effects and a Jag, or a younger guy with a beard playing drop-tuned metal.....the majority of my repair customers will fit into a category like this. (Generalising and stereotyping, but go with it).

    I'm sure the septics have many of the above, but I'm guessing they also have many more country and blues players, and fans of the guys who did use TW and Dumble amps.

    Representative of this difference, is the OPs statement that he couldn't think of a classic hit done on one of these amps; plenty of great recordings were done on them, and on a US forum, those recordings would have been well known and mentioned. In fact I've seen that exact question come up on TGP, and the list is surprisingly long but it's stuff that is less popular over here.

    In short: If your hero played a Marshall, then that's what you want. If he uses a Dumble  (or Two Rock or Fuchs or Bludotone etc etc), then only a D-style amp will do. There's  enough demand, as JPF said, worldwide to drive up the price of those amps, as well as the similar sounding amps still made today. As a Brit, if you want one of these, you're going to have to pay US prices in today's global marketplace.

     

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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    martinw said:

    Here's my theory:

    Left to us Brits, these things (Dumbles and TWs) wouldn't have the value that they do in the US. We don't 'do amps' over here in the same way they 'do amps' in the US. There's a much smaller market for high end amps here, as compared with high end guitars. I'm generalising of course, but I'd say the interest in that kind of sound amongst the typical UK guitar player is far lower. Even amongst the membership of this board, which IMO is a self-selecting and untypical group. In contrast look at the number of small amp companies in the US....there's thousands of them!

    My theory as to why is to do with predominant musical styles, and the equipment needed for them, creating a culture in America of guitar playing that regards amps as vital tone shapers, part of the instrument. We seem to be a lot more 'rock' over here, less interested in the subtleties of various different 'not-quite-clean' sounds and such.

    When I think of a typical British guitar player, he's a guy playing classic rock in a pub, or playing indie with lots of effects and a Jag, or a younger guy with a beard playing drop-tuned metal.....the majority of my repair customers will fit into a category like this. (Generalising and stereotyping, but go with it).

    I'm sure the septics have many of the above, but I'm guessing they also have many more country and blues players, and fans of the guys who did use TW and Dumble amps.

    Representative of this difference, is the OPs statement that he couldn't think of a classic hit done on one of these amps; plenty of great recordings were done on them, and on a US forum, those recordings would have been well known and mentioned. In fact I've seen that exact question come up on TGP, and the list is surprisingly long but it's stuff that is less popular over here.

    In short: If your hero played a Marshall, then that's what you want. If he uses a Dumble  (or Two Rock or Fuchs or Bludotone etc etc), then only a D-style amp will do. There's  enough demand, as JPF said, worldwide to drive up the price of those amps, as well as the similar sounding amps still made today. As a Brit, if you want one of these, you're going to have to pay US prices in today's global marketplace.

     

    I would certainly agree with this, they do seem to be more into their amps in the US.
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    hywelg said:
    Most (and I am making assumptions about forum members playing abilities here), on here would likely hate the way a Dumble will reveal the flaws in a players technique, but thats what a good player is searching for often, the ability of an amp to truly reflect what the fingers and head are trying to portray.

    Of course, silly me, that's why I don't like Dumble-style amps because they will reveal how truly appalling my guitar playing is!
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  • martmart Frets: 5205
    martinw said:

    Here's my theory:

    Left to us Brits, these things (Dumbles and TWs) wouldn't have the value that they do in the US. We don't 'do amps' over here in the same way they 'do amps' in the US. 

    ....

    Is that more true about amps than about guitars? I have the impression this might be part of the huge culture difference between the UK and the US about all sorts of equipment. We tend often to fall into the "it's all in the fingers" way of thinking, which has a huge amount of respect for the person making amazing music on a Squier through a cheap amp, but a slight disdain for the guys that have the most expensive boutique kit, no matter how well they use it.

    I think it ties in with our love of rank amateurism - producing amazing stuff in garden sheds, etc etc.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11790
    mart said:
    martinw said:

    Here's my theory:

    Left to us Brits, these things (Dumbles and TWs) wouldn't have the value that they do in the US. We don't 'do amps' over here in the same way they 'do amps' in the US. 

    ....

    Is that more true about amps than about guitars? I have the impression this might be part of the huge culture difference between the UK and the US about all sorts of equipment. We tend often to fall into the "it's all in the fingers" way of thinking, which has a huge amount of respect for the person making amazing music on a Squier through a cheap amp, but a slight disdain for the guys that have the most expensive boutique kit, no matter how well they use it.

    I think it ties in with our love of rank amateurism - producing amazing stuff in garden sheds, etc etc.

    I think we're the same about guitars too in the UK - most people are happy with semi-pro guitars here. The network of small-shop acoustic builders in particular over in the USA is doing amazing things, and getting plenty of sales. Our best luthiers find it hard to find buyers, everyone just wants a Taylor. Most people don't even know the top USA boutique acoustic brand names

    Mind you, unlike plenty of other things, the Americans did invent steel strung guitars, electrics, lap steels, amps, etc. so they have grown up with the best kit for sale - good kit was pretty rare here until recently. The exception to this is that everyone still looks to Spain firstly for top classicals, but we don't have the long-term history in any category here (other than Vox and Marshall making stunning designs before going off onto something new), and you are right, there is a (to me inexplicable) "you should make do with cheap gear, even if you have the money to buy better" attitude that is popular in the UK  

    As I've said to Martin, I can't believe that people will go into Dawsons or PMT, etc., buy Gibsons, USA Fenders, PRSs, then run them through their single, much cheaper amp. I think a ratio of one amp for every 2 guitars is a good idea, spending about the same on an amp as on a guitar. I have certainly noticed the benefit from adopting this approach.

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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11790
    martinw said:

    Here's my theory:

    Left to us Brits, these things (Dumbles and TWs) wouldn't have the value that they do in the US. We don't 'do amps' over here in the same way they 'do amps' in the US. There's a much smaller market for high end amps here, as compared with high end guitars. I'm generalising of course, but I'd say the interest in that kind of sound amongst the typical UK guitar player is far lower. Even amongst the membership of this board, which IMO is a self-selecting and untypical group. In contrast look at the number of small amp companies in the US....there's thousands of them!

    My theory as to why is to do with predominant musical styles, and the equipment needed for them, creating a culture in America of guitar playing that regards amps as vital tone shapers, part of the instrument. We seem to be a lot more 'rock' over here, less interested in the subtleties of various different 'not-quite-clean' sounds and such.

    When I think of a typical British guitar player, he's a guy playing classic rock in a pub, or playing indie with lots of effects and a Jag, or a younger guy with a beard playing drop-tuned metal.....the majority of my repair customers will fit into a category like this. (Generalising and stereotyping, but go with it).

    I'm sure the septics have many of the above, but I'm guessing they also have many more country and blues players, and fans of the guys who did use TW and Dumble amps.

    Representative of this difference, is the OPs statement that he couldn't think of a classic hit done on one of these amps; plenty of great recordings were done on them, and on a US forum, those recordings would have been well known and mentioned. In fact I've seen that exact question come up on TGP, and the list is surprisingly long but it's stuff that is less popular over here.

    In short: If your hero played a Marshall, then that's what you want. If he uses a Dumble  (or Two Rock or Fuchs or Bludotone etc etc), then only a D-style amp will do. There's  enough demand, as JPF said, worldwide to drive up the price of those amps, as well as the similar sounding amps still made today. As a Brit, if you want one of these, you're going to have to pay US prices in today's global marketplace.

     

    The rare museum pieces for $60k are just for investment or very rich guys. If you are worth $20 million, and drive cars costing £200k, who cares if an amp is £50k, you can always sell it on with your celeb vibe added.

    More interesting are the upmarket boutique models in production. As you say, the USA buyers seem keen to buy every variation of tone that can help build the individual sounds people want. This seems to be the correct approach if you approach this as a serious player looking for your own sound.

    Most people here seem to buy the same amps as each other, then keep changing their pickups, or spending a fortune on pedals to change the way the amp sounds. I can't see the shops complaining about that

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  • hywelghywelg Frets: 4302
    @ToneControl, nice to see you on here, the Ceriatone forum seems to have died.
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  • JohnPerryJohnPerry Frets: 1616
    Not sure I agree that Americans are inherently less happy to settle for "stock" amps and tone. The guitar/amp market in the States is just bigger for reasons of population and economics too, isn't it? Five times the population. Far lower cost of living in many places, allowing more builders to be able to survive on the limited margins available building high-quality amps and guitars, which they might not here. And where we might pay £2,500 for a Carr, they'll pay, what, £1,500 maybe?

    Am I wrong?

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  • Lexie1Lexie1 Frets: 135
    They sent a begging email out recently so maybe they needed some dosh for hosting etc?
    @ToneControl  TGG is swapping servers at the moment so will be back with a New Look shortly.
    ;)
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  • jellyrolljellyroll Frets: 3073
    @ToneControl "I think a ratio of one amp for every 2 guitars is a good idea, spending about the same on an amp as on a guitar." 

    I like this logic. I'm at least a couple of amps short....... 
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11790
    hywelg said:
    @ToneControl, nice to see you on here, the Ceriatone forum seems to have died.
    I just tried it, seems to work, hi there btw!!
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11790

    I always tell people it was a sofa that did it for me

    We bought a pricey sofa on the basis that you sit on it a lot, we have bad backs and wanted to be comfy. About £2.3k I think. "People spend £10k on a kitchen" I rationalised.

    The next step was to realise that I had no musical instruments anywhere near that price, and wondered what the point of learning guitar and earning money is if sofas take precedence over guitars.

    All down hill since then I'm afraid

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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12648
    Interesting idea about the US being more into amps... or maybe its because their Bullshit detectors aren't so well honed.


    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11790

    Here in the UK, most people seem to think that if something (music, guitars, anything) is not on TV with everyone approving, it must be worth less: they would happily pay as much or more for a PCB-based Fender or Marshall mass-manufactured amp than a hand-made one from a UK builder that will sound better and last longer. I can show my muso or non-muso friends a hand made guitar, and they say "is it not a Gibson then?" or "I liked the Taylor"

    Probably most people in the USA are the same, but in the USA, there seem to be more people who accept that someone living in the same country (who has a family to feed) built something special, and are prepared to pay for it. This makes it easier for those USA brands to develop

    Cheap amps are usually made in China or Vietnam, made with PCBs, or made by someone doing it as a sideline (not making a living from it). I've bought handmade amps from small UK builders, and from Malaysia for this reason, they are all very well-made, but how do you grow a brand that way? Not as easy as in the USA

    btw, don't the USA have the highest church-going stats in the Western world, I assume all those country players and "worship-leading" guitarists need less rocky amps. There's more live music played over there AFAIK

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  • dindudedindude Frets: 8534

    In the US, the guitar is still a dominant instrument in some respects, i.e. country music.

    In the UK, it has been relegated to alomost occasional use (i'm talking about the mainstream here) so even with 5 times the population arguement, I reckon you can probably add quite a bit more on top because of the above, so the Guitar market is way larger.

    I do also think that we in the UK are a bit of a bunch of bargain hunting cheapskates at times.

    I think like @ToneControl and think of the general cost of life things and then relay it to how much time and enjoyment I get out of playing, and spend accordingly.

    I've never regreated buying a nice instrument, once the money is quickly forgotten you are left with something that can last a lifetime and still only cost as much as I've spent on dental wotrk in the last 6 months. It took me a good deal of time to get here though, spent a lot of years playing mediocre kit.

    It actually frustrates me that a lot of the time when great quality kit is shown, even on a enthusiast forum such as this, it gets a shrug, whereas cheap chinese shite seems to get the interest.

    The US forums can be frustratingly over-enthusiastic with their chants of "awesome", but the UK ones can be almost self-consciously humble.

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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    dindude said:

    I do also think that we in the UK are a bit of a bunch of bargain hunting cheapskates at times.


    It's interesting you say this.

    Since I've been in business I have certainly found there are a significant number of British people who want something for nothing. 

    Where I've made cock ups in the past it is invariably that I have tried to do a "cheap" job for someone who doesn't want to pay me for the work I've done. I now refuse to do cheap jobs; you either pay me for my time to do the job properly or you can go somewhere else (that's the joys of the free market!).

    In fact it's my theory that the decline in British industry is intimately linked with this attitude, especially if you look at industrial relations in the 70s. The Unions wanted more pay without any compunction to increase productivity and people in management wanted to be in management because it meant they could collect a salary for doing nothing.

    I find American customers are often more demanding as they expect good service, but are willing to pay for it.
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  • martmart Frets: 5205
    dindude said:

    ....

    I do also think that we in the UK are a bit of a bunch of bargain hunting cheapskates at times.

    ....

    I fear you're right in that. And although it's way off-topic, I do wonder where that tendency came from. 
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11790
    mart said:
    dindude said:

    ....

    I do also think that we in the UK are a bit of a bunch of bargain hunting cheapskates at times.

    ....

    I fear you're right in that. And although it's way off-topic, I do wonder where that tendency came from. 

    I'm not sure, it's a bit like the Jim Royle thing that if something's costly, then the makers have a "racket" going, and it should be cheaper. Are other European countries different?

    Anyway, I can understand beginners playing on cheaper kit, or if you're skint, or trying a new idea (like an 8 string), I've done all that, but if you want Pro kit, you have to pay up.

    However, I do think that mass-manufactured analogue pedals going for £200 might be a racket

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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2328
    edited October 2013
    Good points by martin (the big long post on the previous page, I don't want to quote it and make this post massive :)) )

    As I've said to Martin, I can't believe that people will go into Dawsons or PMT, etc., buy Gibsons, USA Fenders, PRSs, then run them through their single, much cheaper amp. I think a ratio of one amp for every 2 guitars is a good idea, spending about the same on an amp as on a guitar. I have certainly noticed the benefit from adopting this approach.

    Agreed. I really like amps, and amps (and by extension, speakers and cabs) make a big difference. Guitars do too, of course, but I agree it's weird when someone has a private stock PRS and is running it through a Marshall MG.

    The other thing is, though, that amps take up a lot of room. American homes tend to be far bigger (and also tend to have basements and the like), so maybe they can fit in more amps more easily? I know I'd like to have more amps if I had room for them, but I can normally squeeze in another guitar without too much bother.
    JohnPerry said:
    Not sure I agree that Americans are inherently less happy to settle for "stock" amps and tone. The guitar/amp market in the States is just bigger for reasons of population and economics too, isn't it? Five times the population. Far lower cost of living in many places, allowing more builders to be able to survive on the limited margins available building high-quality amps and guitars, which they might not here. And where we might pay £2,500 for a Carr, they'll pay, what, £1,500 maybe?

    Am I wrong?
    That's also a very good point. A lot of the stuff here really is at an eye-watering boutique price point- while it's still expensive in the USA, it's at a more sensible price point (from the consumer's point of view).
    dindude said:

    The US forums can be frustratingly over-enthusiastic with their chants of "awesome", but the UK ones can be almost self-consciously humble.

    Yeah it's very hard to get a happy medium. You either have the TGP way, which is "anything that costs less than a house sucks" or the inverse snobbery way, both of which are annoying (and wrong, really).

    Plus as you and Tonecontrol said, a lot of the popular types of music in the USA still use guitars a lot. And dumble-style amps.
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