Endorsements ... do you care?

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  • IIRC from my discussions with Andy Hunt from Matrix Amplification has the opinion that his gear is professional quality, and that professionals should pay for that quality, just like the everyday guitarist.
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9979
    tFB Trader

    As stated, a lot of people are interested in the exposure as much as the discount, especially less established artists.
    People can expose themselves freely on my site :)

    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • dindudedindude Frets: 8534
    edited October 2013

    I saw this a while back which is an honest approach I think.
    Interesting that they demand that bands have original material yet bang out copies of Strats Tele's Prs Ibanez Gibbo's etc.

    Back on the original topic, I think you can tell when an endorsement is the real deal or is, look, we've put a p90 in our regular guitar after six months of research with x guitarist (Vintage, Fret King, that's you)
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  • The way i see it is a lot of these huge artists that are being endorsed make enough money to be able to buy their instruments but most of them get them free.The people that have to pay top doller are the little people like me cos i'm a nobody lol but i would not take or expect a freebie as i like to make my own way (silly or not).
    You mentioned Satriani,that is different cos he is so big Ibanez know people will buy their guitars just cos their idol uses it.I had a JS1000 once not cos he's my idol but cos i love his sound.
    As for your pickups,we are not talking wads of money here so really anyone who wants your pickups should pay what you are asking for them,i will be coming to you soon once i have re sprayed my guitar,i have heard them on your website (saw you on Numubu) and i just gotta decide what ones i want and i will expect to pay full price as thats what your asking,at the end of the day you're not as big (company wise) as Ibanez and you have to make a living.Thats my view anyway :)
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  • I've just realise that I've made a dreadful error.  Please pardon me for talking about amps on a guitar thread.
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9979
    tFB Trader
    The way i see it is a lot of these huge artists that are being endorsed make enough money to be able to buy their instruments but most of them get them free.The people that have to pay top doller are the little people like me cos i'm a nobody lol but i would not take or expect a freebie as i like to make my own way (silly or not).
    You mentioned Satriani,that is different cos he is so big Ibanez know people will buy their guitars just cos their idol uses it.I had a JS1000 once not cos he's my idol but cos i love his sound.
    As for your pickups,we are not talking wads of money here so really anyone who wants your pickups should pay what you are asking for them,i will be coming to you soon once i have re sprayed my guitar,i have heard them on your website (saw you on Numubu) and i just gotta decide what ones i want and i will expect to pay full price as thats what your asking,at the end of the day you're not as big (company wise) as Ibanez and you have to make a living.Thats my view anyway :)
    Hiya mate ... nice to see you on Fretboard as well as Numubu  - always sounds like a new Linux distro or East African unleavened bread to me  :)

    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • Paul_CPaul_C Frets: 7670
    I made a couple of guitars for a band not long after I'd started - I only knocked off a bit because I really couldn't afford to do more - they released a CD, which I got a credit on, made a video with one of the guitars featuring quite prominently at one point (3:20)



    and they had a small feature in Metal Hammer, a copy of which Bradders sent me.

    the grand total of contacts I had as a consequence . . . none.

    :)
    "I'll probably be in the bins at Newport Pagnell services."  fretmeister
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4942
    Looking at the endorsing a product from another angle, it could well be the death knell of a small manufacturer if a well known guitarist started using and speaking of (endorsing) your product.

    A mythical example: supposing I create a pedal called RockerSwirl [which does weird things to the guitar sound].  In my 'manufacturing' facility [ie my workshop], I can produce a half dozen pedals per week - the painting is farmed out and all that.  Supposing Eric Clapton started using RockerSwirl, he mentions it in a guitar magazine and then everyone wants one.  What then.  From five or six units per week, I suddenly get orders for perhaps one hundred pedals!  I cannot possibly build any more than five or six per week so what do I do?  Tooling up to produce fifty pedals per week is costly and the orders might dry up overnight.  Or when someone clones RockerSwirl.  You get the drift.

    A large boost in sales or orders can have a worse effect on a small producer than a slump.  In a slump the manufacturer can stop building pedals or reduce output and hope the market picks up again.  It is not so easy the other way round.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    If you are running a business then endorsements help but they have to be the right ones.

    Most of the people that will contact you for an endorsement won't be players with any sort of name and they are just trying to screw you for free gear.
    If you want to play the game then do a 10-20% endorsee discount.

    Big companies have 'endorsement tiers'- normally a 3 tier system.

    Tier 1 is for 'named' pro players- the Satriani's and the like- people with record deals- gear is free, or even they get paid to use their name, as well as full technical support.

    Tier 2 is for pro players who employed by top tier people, or people who are up and coming and might end up as Tier 1. They get discounted gear and often tech support

    Tier 3 is for the jobbing muso's- the busy guys but who probably don't have a deal. They usually get a small discount and perhaps some tech support- less than Tier 2 of course.

    How much you want to get involved with artist endorsement is really up to you.

    Vintage are a company who I think totally fail on their endorsements.
    Absolutely no-one knows who their endorsee's are.
    A company that does it right would be ESP or Ibanez.
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  • I try not to talk about the day job on here - but this is of great annoyance to me.

    I've turned down many people, it's hurt Bulldog's profile to a certain extent. Same at Matamp, we told Gary Moore to sling his hook wanting free stuff, along with others. I can even tell you how much it costs to buy an endorsement of a famous name.

    I've even been an endorser of famous name brands who say they don't give stuff away, well they gave me stuff for free. I've even been offered stuff for favourable reviews on Harmony Central etc.

    It's the way it is and the way it always will be sadly. I'd even put my neck out and say many guitarists lack the confidence to like a piece of gear on its own merit. They need the reassurance of a famous name endorser.

    End of rant.

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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9979
    edited October 2013 tFB Trader
    I try not to talk about the day job on here - but this is of great annoyance to me.

    I've turned down many people, it's hurt Bulldog's profile to a certain extent. Same at Matamp, we told Gary Moore to sling his hook wanting free stuff, along with others. I can even tell you how much it costs to buy an endorsement of a famous name.

    I've even been an endorser of famous name brands who say they don't give stuff away, well they gave me stuff for free. I've even been offered stuff for favourable reviews on Harmony Central etc.

    It's the way it is and the way it always will be sadly. I'd even put my neck out and say many guitarists lack the confidence to like a piece of gear on its own merit. They need the reassurance of a famous name endorser.

    End of rant.

    Pickup winders need a good rant ... ranting properly while trying to 'hand lay' 44awg will lead to tears before bedtime.
    Guitar builders can relieve their tensions by stabbing a large lump of wood with something sharp ... or even (smacks lips) a power tool. Us Wise Ones Of The Wobbly Wire have to be more restrained :)

    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71953
    edited October 2013
    There are a few rock stars I've come across in the repair business who I won't work for again after being pissed about, expected to work for cheaper than usual because of "who they are" etc, and especially if they want to jump the queue as well - which of course they often do if they're on tour. (No I won't say who.) The answer is always no, so probably they wouldn't ask again anyway since mostly they seem to not like being told they aren't getting special treatment.

    I'm pleased to say there are also a lot who aren't like that at all.


    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
    Be careful what you wish for - it may come true

    In reference to @Rocker 's comments above, the biggest danger is "over trading"

    Get great PR, orders come flooding in, and you don't have the capacity to supply = problem 1
    So you stop making and start setting up the capacity to meet the real and projected orders = problem 2
    Get staff in to cover production = quality control goes to pot = problem 3
    Time to recruit, train and leverage staff advantage = problem 4
    Get premises to house staff and extra production = problem 5
    Time to arrange and equip and move into premises = problem 6
    Establish volume supplies and favourable pricing = problem 7
    Finding the finance to pay for premises, staff and supplies etc = often going bust with a full order book
    Getting the money in for the orders you have supplied = you guess, that's why factoring companies exist (leeches)

    Say sod it and get production from China = another BIG can of worms

    The first thing to consider is how you want the business to look 1 year, 2y, 5y, and 10 years down the line
    Then plan for sustainable and controlled growth
    (and that includes PR like how you handle endorsement programs, or not)
    Know your limitations ***
    Tell the banks to fuck off   ('cause they WILL screw you, just when you need help)
    Be prepared to throw all the plans out and start planning from square one at any moment, 'cause life changes
    Live the business, because if it isn't growing it is dying.

    *** I believe that both artists and craftspeople vs the business world make slightly uncomfortable bed-fellows.  It is a rare person that has the natural aptitude and the available time to bridge both worlds effectively.

    It all brings that old wisdom to mind "be careful what you wish for - it may come true"

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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9979
    tFB Trader

    Be careful what you wish for - it may come true

    In reference to @Rocker 's comments above, the biggest danger is "over trading"

    Get great PR, orders come flooding in, and you don't have the capacity to supply = problem 1
    So you stop making and start setting up the capacity to meet the real and projected orders = problem 2
    Get staff in to cover production = quality control goes to pot = problem 3
    Time to recruit, train and leverage staff advantage = problem 4
    Get premises to house staff and extra production = problem 5
    Time to arrange and equip and move into premises = problem 6
    Establish volume supplies and favourable pricing = problem 7
    Finding the finance to pay for premises, staff and supplies etc = often going bust with a full order book
    Getting the money in for the orders you have supplied = you guess, that's why factoring companies exist (leeches)

    Say sod it and get production from China = another BIG can of worms

    The first thing to consider is how you want the business to look 1 year, 2y, 5y, and 10 years down the line
    Then plan for sustainable and controlled growth
    (and that includes PR like how you handle endorsement programs, or not)
    Know your limitations ***
    Tell the banks to fuck off   ('cause they WILL screw you, just when you need help)
    Be prepared to throw all the plans out and start planning from square one at any moment, 'cause life changes
    Live the business, because if it isn't growing it is dying.

    *** I believe that both artists and craftspeople vs the business world make slightly uncomfortable bed-fellows.  It is a rare person that has the natural aptitude and the available time to bridge both worlds effectively.

    It all brings that old wisdom to mind "be careful what you wish for - it may come true"
    I'm a bit of an old hand at running businesses ... had a music shop for ten years ... have spent most of my life self employed ... and had a father, who, though a brilliant engineer and wonderful inventor fell into all the above traps.

    And I will say this now ... big and bold ... Oil City will never get any production done in the Far East ... however much the brand expands.

    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
    Wise words Ash, you know your stuff   :)

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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27569
    I never did endorsements despite being asked for 'em. On the other hand three quite successful artists/musicians paid full whack and were great to deal with.

    I think you were right to turn them down.
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • TheGuitarWeasel;61884" said:

    Pickup winders need a good rant ... ranting properly while trying to 'hand lay' 44awg will lead to tears before bedtime.

    Guitar builders can relieve their tensions by stabbing a large lump of wood with something sharp ... or even (smacks lips) a power tool. Us Wise Ones Of The Wobbly Wire have to be more restrained :)

    Too true. And 45awg is even more of a sod - hence the reason I try and avoid it....


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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11789

    Jim is right, Vintage actually do themselves a disservice with their embarrassing endorser montage ads

    I think the 3 tier approach is a good model for large companies. For smaller ones, I think a dedicated genuine user of your stuff, who has some recognition, should get trade price type discount, and enhanced support. Other than that, I'd feel like a small business was being shafted

    We should have another thread about signature models - most of them have been impressive but expensive, and I always feel a little worried that other players will think I'm a tosser who thinks I can pick a Pro's skill up by buying a guitar with his signature on it

    I've only ever bought 2 - a USA acoustic, for a very good used price, and a Pat Metheny Ibanez. I tried the Gibson 175, etc. and didn't like the baseball bat necks much, and concluded that if Metheny has played these Ibanez models for 2 decades or so, they must be pretty good - why would someone so rich and talented have a sig model and play it that long if it was lacking? That's the big test really, how long does the player carry on using the kit? I think Ibanez must have the best record for retention of endorsement for long-term signature models. Scofield, Benson, Metheny, Vai, Satriani.......

    Anyway, anyone asking a small business for a deal should have to be pretty high-profile, and only expect trade prices and extra support, unless the business has no players, and the endorsee spends a lot of time helping to develop products

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  • JohnPerryJohnPerry Frets: 1616
    I can think of some "boutique" manufacturers whose gear I own and who I am convinced would pay me not to use it if they heard me

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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2324
    Personally, not really. Though I expect it works for some people or they wouldn't do it.
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