Instant Jazz

frankus

In the words of Germaine Clement "be more specific with your feedback..." or else it just seems like you want to keep hold of your belief and avoid any interaction with people who challenge that.

 

I've not been a teacher but I've had a lot of teachers at school who seemed to think attendance and recital was enough. I'm pretty much with George Leonards prognosis of these people: lazy.

 

I've coached a lot of different styles of martial arts and my biggest motivation for those people was getting them to come back - not for the money (unlike you it's not my profession). I wanted to the club to thrive and more people to share what I enjoy.

 

I'm trained as a scrum master - which is a business process coach and educator for (in my case) IT projects, everyone wants the shiny stuff and not the basics that have real value - the trick is playing the long game and not fucking things up by having a sulk (no matter how stupid people with a lot of authority are being).

 

And I've paid a lot of experts a lot of money, I'll happily handed over £50 an hour to and those people bring a hell of a lot more to the table - that's physiotherapy, psychology, guitar, boxing, kick boxing, fitness and martial arts. I have no problem paying for experience and enthusiasm, but if I don't find enthusiasm, I wouldn't be calling back.

 

I've no issue with truculent teachers, myself, I can leave my ego at the door to get the most from someone else's experience - and that has involved getting punched a lot and hard (which I find a lot more tolerable than sarcasm for some reason) - but I'll put the money down to the expense of finding the right teacher, if I can't get on with a teacher, frankly anything where it involves a power trip and I'm out.

 

What I take exception to is teachers thinking they can educate using discouragement, if they weren't so wrapped up in their own suffering they'd see it for what it is, abuse. That's poor communication skills - no need to dress it up as anything else.

 

If a student doesn't want the basics, I can't see the kudos in being effete about that, they don't get it? Help them, educate!

Clarky

tonyrath said:

By jazz I mean modal playing - bluesy jazz - tunes with passing notes using arps and modes and stuff 

Some bop yes but other styles have now been developed Also play and invent a TUNE around chords - notes whatever   

IMO You have to hear it to play it - and you have to know your way around the fretboard in order to be creative  In order to bend and break the rules - you have to know them 

lil' point to note here...

the headbangers mostly play modally.. even though they mostly don't actually realise it..

Clarky

tonyrath said:

1 Fretboard knowedge is required at beginner plus level ie Grade 2 in guitar exams 

3 Ear training starts at absolute beginner level  and is continual 

I seriously agree with this...

I mainly teach via repertoire rather than exercises.. cos it's fun and my stude's get great satisfaction from conquering each piece.. and I think that lessons learned within the context of a song / riff / solo etc seem to stick better..

the songs I give the students are carefully chosen to either introduce them to some new technique, idea / theory thing, etc.. or to pick at a technique scab they have that needs sorting

that said... fingerboard knowledge and listening starts on lesson 1, and never stops.. it just gets more demanding.. it takes a little time before folks can hear with certainty when notes are 'in' or 'out'.. it's very cool though when you see the penny drop for them..

GuyBoden

Clarky said:

tonyrath said:

By jazz I mean modal playing - bluesy jazz - tunes with passing notes using arps and modes and stuff 

Some bop yes but other styles have now been developed Also play and invent a TUNE around chords - notes whatever   

IMO You have to hear it to play it - and you have to know your way around the fretboard in order to be creative  In order to bend and break the rules - you have to know them 

lil' point to note here...

the headbangers mostly play modally.. even though they mostly don't actually realise it..

I don't want to get into an argument, but modal Jazz and playing modal Pop/Rock is very different harmonically. I think this difference is not quite understood by many fellow forum members, but maybe they don't even care.

To get my point, just examine the Modal harmony in older folks songs played in a mode to how Modal harmony is used in Modal Jazz.

Clarky

to be honest.. I don't discriminate.. if you're in the key of Am and you're playing from a different key centre [A Dorian being so common] then you're playing modally.. to my mind it really is that simple..

this being the case... it's not rare for a blues / funk / rock / pop song in a major key to use Mixolydian harmony in places or throughout.. and likewise, in a minor key Dorian won't be rare either

if however you're playing over a chord progression in [or centred around] a given key, but you've treating each chord [or small groups of them] very differently harmony wise in order to create melodies / licks that are of more exotic content, then you're still playing modally.. but the difference here is that you're using a method that some refer to as Melodic Substitution..

of course melodic substitution is the bread and butter of jazz and all it's derivative styles... but jazzers ain't the only fellas that do this.. shredders like Satch and Vai etc and many prog rock / metal are big on this too.. but the reason they don't sound like jazz is that they make different choices and they're music has a different context..

so... to me... modes are modes... jazz or not.. the only difference is context and application..

btw: I'm not arguing.. just my point of view.. and if no one agrees with me.. that's cool.. and they're clearly wrong.. lmao

GuyBoden

Clarky said:

to be honest.. I don't discriminate.. if you're in the key of Am and you're playing from a different key centre [A Dorian being so common] then you're playing modally.. to my mind it really is that simple..

this being the case... it's not rare for a blues / funk / rock / pop song in a major key to use Mixolydian harmony in places or throughout.. and likewise, in a minor key Dorian won't be rare either

if however you're playing over a chord progression in [or centred around] a given key, but you've treating each chord [or small groups of them] very differently harmony wise in order to create melodies / licks that are of more exotic content, then you're still playing modally.. but the difference here is that you're using a method that some refer to as Melodic Substitution..

of course melodic substitution is the bread and butter of jazz and all it's derivative styles... but jazzers ain't the only fellas that do this.. shredders like Satch and Vai etc and many prog rock / metal are big on this too.. but the reason they don't sound like jazz is that they make different choices and they're music has a different context..

so... to me... modes are modes... jazz or not.. the only difference is context and application..

btw: I'm not arguing.. just my point of view.. and if no one agrees with me.. that's cool.. and they're clearly wrong.. lmao

We all percieve things in different ways, the basics of what I perceive to be modal Jazz Harmony is outlined here:
The Basics of Modal Jazz Harmony

frankus

It's a bit trite and perhaps too blunt, but I'm thinking of the old Einstein quote right about now: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." I could be wrong, but most things I believe in I can explain from a high level to people because I enjoy looking at it from their point of view..

 

So, to my mind, popping a link to something to explain what you believe is... well it's... it's best explained here...https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

GuyBoden

frankus said:

It's a bit trite and perhaps too blunt, but I'm thinking of the old Einstein quote right about now: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." I could be wrong, but most things I believe in I can explain from a high level to people because I enjoy looking at it from their point of view..

 

So, to my mind, popping a link to something to explain what you believe is... well it's... it's best explained here...https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Frankus, yes, you're probably correct with that Einstein quote, I've tried to explain Modal Jazz Harmony in previous threads/posts, but Ted Pease explains it better than I ever could.

Just down load the lesson for free, from Berklee.
Modal Jazz Harmony

Clarky

I think my point is getting missed a bit...

playing modes is playing modes.. any style of music can and generally does to varying degrees

playing jazz is playing jazz.. jazz styles just happen to be heavy users of modes

what my original comment was aiming at [maybe not that well] is something like this..

earlier Tony makes a great point that you have to be able 'hear' them to use them well.. totally agree.. I just popped up to say I agree.. and also to add that there are a lot of folks outside of the jazz world that have a great interest and need to understand and use / exploit modes too.. I guess my original comment didn't put across what I was thinking particularly well..

GuyBoden

Clarky said:

I think my point is getting missed a bit...

playing modes is playing modes.. any style of music can and generally does to varying degrees

playing jazz is playing jazz.. jazz styles just happen to be heavy users of modes

what my original comment was aiming at [maybe not that well] is something like this..

earlier Tony makes a great point that you have to be able 'hear' them to use them well.. totally agree.. I just popped up to say I agree.. and also to add that there are a lot of folks outside of the jazz world that have a great interest and need to understand and use / exploit modes too.. I guess my original comment didn't put across what I was thinking particularly well..

Clarky, to me, your point is not missed, but playing older Jazz standards uses traditional harmony with 2-5-1s, 1-6-2-5s,  cadences etc, where as Modal Jazz uses harmony based on each mode with the tonic centre being the mode. I may be wrong, but personally, I think that's quite a different approach.

mellowsun

GuyBoden said:

There's some players who want to play "JAZZ", but never listen to any Jazz music. I find this very puzzling..............

I can kind of understand this. Perhaps those people want to know more about creating interesting harmonies and extended/altered chords but find most music classified as 'jazz' tedious to listen to.

tbh I am a bit like that. The sort of music played on Jazz record requests on Radio 3 and big band stuff, can't stand it. 

GuyBoden

mellowsun said:

GuyBoden said:

There's some players who want to play "JAZZ", but never listen to any Jazz music. I find this very puzzling..............

I can kind of understand this. Perhaps those people want to know more about creating interesting harmonies and extended/altered chords but find most music classified as 'jazz' tedious to listen to.

tbh I am a bit like that. The sort of music played on Jazz record requests on Radio 3 and big band stuff, can't stand it. 

Yeah, the modern stuff is best.

ROOG

Dam, there was me thinking this thread may have the answers to my prayers.

Clarky

mellowsun said:

GuyBoden said:

There's some players who want to play "JAZZ", but never listen to any Jazz music. I find this very puzzling..............

I can kind of understand this. Perhaps those people want to know more about creating interesting harmonies and extended/altered chords but find most music classified as 'jazz' tedious to listen to.

tbh I am a bit like that. The sort of music played on Jazz record requests on Radio 3 and big band stuff, can't stand it. 

I'm not a jazz fan either… just not my thing…

that said, I love Gypsy Jazz when it's done well..

it has this wonderful cheeky quality.. vibrant and fun..

but under all that is a level of musicianship that's absolutely 1st class

PolarityMan

Clarky said:

no matter what you want to play well, classical, shred, jazz, country... anything really..

there's no short cut.. and each style is pretty much a lifestyle in its own right..

plus.... there are very few players multi-discipline players that are serious masters of jazz and metal shred and country etc..

the only one I can think of that can is Guthrie... he's one of a kind and should be in the circus cos he ain't normal...

I've never heard him play convincing actual metal. It's always that shreddy variation on metal.

viz

Anyone else watch Wynton Marsalis last night? It was wonderful.

bigjon

ROOG said:

Dam, there was me thinking this thread may have the answers to my prayers.

Close, the thread you're looking for is here

The Universal All-Purpose Jazz Chord - 

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/30832/chord-of-the-week-3-1-15-the-universal-all-purpose-jazz-chord

GuyBoden

bigjon said:

ROOG said:

Dam, there was me thinking this thread may have the answers to my prayers.

Close, the thread you're looking for is here

The Universal All-Purpose Jazz Chord - 

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/30832/chord-of-the-week-3-1-15-the-universal-all-purpose-jazz-chord

No you're wrong, this is the only chord you need for Jazz:

Clarky

PolarityMan said:

Clarky said:

no matter what you want to play well, classical, shred, jazz, country... anything really..

there's no short cut.. and each style is pretty much a lifestyle in its own right..

plus.... there are very few players multi-discipline players that are serious masters of jazz and metal shred and country etc..

the only one I can think of that can is Guthrie... he's one of a kind and should be in the circus cos he ain't normal...

I've never heard him play convincing actual metal. It's always that shreddy variation on metal.

I know what you mean.. but then metal ain't really his thing I guess..