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  • lloydlloyd Frets: 5773
    Aye, mini collapse there-Compton must know he's on his way out now?


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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 11262
    Time to revive this one.

    Ten wickets at Lords for Woakes, he's really come on in the last few months.

    But I don't think we can save this unless we bat better against the Lionel Messi lookalike leggie.
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  • lloydlloyd Frets: 5773
    Nice timing of the wicket before end of play.

    Should be a good last day, batting will need to be great but they're capable of it.

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  • kjdowdkjdowd Frets: 852
    Cracking test. I was there yesterday and despite the fact that he rolled up our batting like they'd never played spin before, it was a pleasure to watch Yasir bowl. Not often to get to watch a good leggie at work, and he's got some pace on him as well for a spinner. As to England, it was a surprise to see Ballance back (despite a decent international avg) and Vince has had his go, I think. With Stokes and Anderson back, what about: Cook, Hales, Root, Buttler, Bairstow, Stokes, Woakes, Ali, Broad, Rashid, Anderson. 4 seamers, 2 spinners (3 if you count Root...) and deep batting. And two keepers! Not sure about Buttler (or stokes/Bairstow for that matter) coming in at 4 but it's not like anyone else has done much better!
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    Drop VInce or Ballance and play Bairstow as a batsman.  Pick Foster or Foakes as the keeper.  With Stokes back you have him at 6, Ali at 7, Woakes at 8, and the keeper at 9 and you still bat incredibly deep.

    Bairstow is one of our best three batsmen and you won't get the best out of him as a batsman if he's keeping as well.  Look at Alec Stewart.  His average was 12 runs higher when he played as a batsmen than when he kept wicket.  Sangakarra and De Villiers also have much better batting stats when they are not keeping.  Unlike Stewart, Bairstow isn't even that good a keeper and the batting depth we have there is no excuse for playing him as the keeper.  Unless he's improved immeasurably in the last few months Buttler's keeping is even worse than Bairstow's so he's not an option either.

    It does look like we are back to the bad old days of being completely unable to play leg spin.  I wonder if Borthwick might do better given that he bowls leg spin himself.
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 11262
    crunchman said:
    Drop VInce or Ballance and play Bairstow as a batsman.  Pick Foster or Foakes as the keeper.  With Stokes back you have him at 6, Ali at 7, Woakes at 8, and the keeper at 9 and you still bat incredibly deep.

    Bairstow is one of our best three batsmen and you won't get the best out of him as a batsman if he's keeping as well.  Look at Alec Stewart.  His average was 12 runs higher when he played as a batsmen than when he kept wicket.  Sangakarra and De Villiers also have much better batting stats when they are not keeping.  Unlike Stewart, Bairstow isn't even that good a keeper and the batting depth we have there is no excuse for playing him as the keeper.  Unless he's improved immeasurably in the last few months Buttler's keeping is even worse than Bairstow's so he's not an option either.

    It does look like we are back to the bad old days of being completely unable to play leg spin.  I wonder if Borthwick might do better given that he bowls leg spin himself.
    You just want Foakes, Stokes and Woakes in the same team.
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  • NeilNeil Frets: 3594
    Going to be nip and tuck in this test.

    Pakistan are a far better match for us than poor old Sri Lanka.
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  • lloydlloyd Frets: 5773
    Batsmen are under pressure here, need to keep this partnership going as long as possible, if it goes in the next 10-20 runs then I can't see us winning it, even then it's going to be. Tough.

    Much better test match.

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    Conditions are better. Pakistan having to deal with the Durham cold in the early season would have played as poorly as Sri Lanka. 

    Saw the second day. Decent day's cricket. The Woakes success is heartening as a lot of folk missed how much of last year he missed with injury. As Broad showed in the past, bowlers coming back from injury do take time to get back in. They need overs under their belt. Woakes in South Africa didn't have those overs but he does now and he looks much better. Finn is still a difficult one. 

    The England batting in both innings has not been good. Attacking is fine but if you only go for that then you're playing as one-dimensionally as the past. Batting techniques have evolved but in many ways the mental approach to batting has regressed. 

    As a leg spinner, it was most enjoyable watching Yasir Shah bowling. Terrifying though seeing how badly we played him in the first innings on a slowish pitch that wasn't turning much. That five-Test series in India in a few months is going to be a huge Test. 





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  • lloydlloyd Frets: 5773
    Well that's fucked it

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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 11262
    Well played Pakistan. A very tense last few hours.

    Honourable mentions to Woakes and Bairstow for their batting. Moeen - what the hell were you thinking of?

    In the absence of a decent spinner we are in trouble for India. I don't know what's the current state of Monty Panesar, but they have to keep an eye out. Moeen isn't a match-winning spinner, I don't know who else there is. Borthwick's now considered to be a batsman primarily. Tredwell - more of a defensive bowler.

    Second test team? Stokes in for Finn or Ball. Maybe Rashid for Moeen.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    edited July 2016
    crunchman said:
    Drop VInce or Ballance and play Bairstow as a batsman.  Pick Foster or Foakes as the keeper.  With Stokes back you have him at 6, Ali at 7, Woakes at 8, and the keeper at 9 and you still bat incredibly deep.

    Bairstow is one of our best three batsmen and you won't get the best out of him as a batsman if he's keeping as well.  Look at Alec Stewart.  His average was 12 runs higher when he played as a batsmen than when he kept wicket.  Sangakarra and De Villiers also have much better batting stats when they are not keeping.  Unlike Stewart, Bairstow isn't even that good a keeper and the batting depth we have there is no excuse for playing him as the keeper.  Unless he's improved immeasurably in the last few months Buttler's keeping is even worse than Bairstow's so he's not an option either.

    It does look like we are back to the bad old days of being completely unable to play leg spin.  I wonder if Borthwick might do better given that he bowls leg spin himself.

    I've stated my opposition to both Bairstow and Buttler playing as wicktkeeper batsmen many times and nothing has changed. The catches YJB has put down have been dreadful, perhaps even worse than Prior early on with England. 

    Our middle order still has no real sense of organisation. The seam bowling situation is positive. Anderson will be back, Ball looks more than useful and deserved more than one wicket, Woakes has zipped on, Finn will hopefully come back, Wood is on the mend and has been bowling this week, and we still haven't tried Footitt out. Spin bowling is still very inconsistent. Moeen's bowling is going backwards and today's shot was inexplicable for someone rated as having a good control of the mental side of the game. 

    Old Trafford will offer something for the bowlers. 

    Cook
    Hales
    Ballance - he's shown some fight today. Deserves to keep on. Vince isn't ready. Put him at 3. 
    Root
    Bairstow
    Stokes
    Wicketkeeper - Foakes gets the pundit tip but I'd prefer Foster for experience and Ben Cox for young potential. Good hands, that one. 
    Woakes
    Rashid
    Broad
    Anderson - if fit. If not then Ball. He's bowling better than Finn right now. 



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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    I'd agree with you completely on the team.  Foster would be my preference as well.  I'm not sure about the batting order though.  I'd leave Ballance lower than 3.  He got found out there before.  If you expose him to a newish ball I think you are asking for trouble.  I'd probably stick with Root at 3 and Ballance at 4.
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 11262
    I wouldn't put Root at 3. He bats well at 4, and we must play him in his best position and work our way around him.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    crunchman said:
    I'd agree with you completely on the team.  Foster would be my preference as well.  I'm not sure about the batting order though.  I'd leave Ballance lower than 3.  He got found out there before.  If you expose him to a newish ball I think you are asking for trouble.  I'd probably stick with Root at 3 and Ballance at 4.

    Root batting from 4-6: 57 innings, 2953 runs at 60.26, and eight centuries. 
    Root batting from 1-3: 11 innings, 597 runs at 33, and one century. 

    If you have a diamond at 4, then you shouldn't use him to plug a gap at 3 because he might not succeed at 3 and then you've lost a great number 4.

    Ballance isn't incapable against the new ball. His first Test ton saw him come in at 3 on 22-1 after 10 overs. Subsequent tons occurred after he came in at 55-1, 46-1, and 1-15 respectively. He wasn't the first to have a technical issue pointed out in the Test arena and many have come back from similar dilemmas (the one that will stay with me is Gooch in 1989 playing around his front pad). As it seems that Ian Bell's career is over and there's a number of potential candidates who would make a decent claim without that claim being hugely strong (Borthwick, Stoneman, James Hildreth, possibly even Nicks Gubbins and Browne), at some point the selectors have to decide whether to go for a candidate on sheer weight of runs alone or to pick someone whose overall record might not be stellar but they strike you as having the right aptitude for Test cricket (as Fletcher did when he selected Trescothick). If I were going to go leftfield, I'd throw my lot in with Gubbins. 

    @scrumhalf Panesar is nowhere near an England spot. He's played more Minor Counties cricket for Bedfordshire this season than he has for the full Northants team. If we do go with three spinners for the India trip, then I would go with Ali, Rashid, and Tredwell. The selectors know what they would be getting from all three. 



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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    edited July 2016
    @Heartfeltdawn - I think bowler's have worked out Ballance now.  That average was compiled early on against some lesser fast bowling attacks.  10 of his first 11 tests were against SL, India and WI.  Wahab and Amir, and the Australian and South African fast bowlers would have a field day against him if he's coming in at 3.  I'm still not entirely convinced that bringing him back now was a great idea but if he is going to play he's got to be shielded from the new ball.

    Also, Root's stats between one and three include when he first came into the team as an opener and struggled.  He's a much better player than that now.  From that point of view your comparison is a bit iffy.  Even if he averages 50 at 3 instead of 60 he will make life so much easier for the middle order players that overall the team will be better off.  I also don't think there is anyone else in the current team equipped to bat at 3.

    The other option is to bring in Borthwick at 3 - it's where he bats for Durham on some quite spicy pitches.  It would also give you another spin option of sorts.  That would mean leaving out Ballance one test after bringing him back though which isn't a great way to treat him.

    Thinking about it there is some merit to playing Ali with all the Pakistan left armers to create rough for him - although Root could chip in with some offspin if Rashid plays.  That's one of the problems with Ali.  He's not that much better as a bowler than Root.

    Edit:  just noticed that Borthwick top scored for Durham yesterday against a Lancs side containing Jimmy Anderson.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    Root didn't first come into the team as an opening batsman His debut against India was at 6 and he then played five Tests against NZ at 5. Undoubtedly he is a better player than when he entered the Test arena but I'd question the mental approach right now. Those two dismissals at Lords were not indicative of a bloke fully mentally out there. Moeen's hoick in the 2nd innings was lousy but Root's swipe across the line at Shah in the first innings was no better in my view. There is attacking and then there is giving away your wicket when you are in control. 

    It's pertinent to look at Australia and Steve Smith. After he scored a bucketload of runs at 4, he went up to 3 against WI and England and NZ in 2015 and scored even more. He then dropped down to 4 in order to strengthen it and to incorporate lesser experienced players like Burns and Khawaja above him. Both of those guys have scored good runs as has Voges at 5. The current Australian top 5 average 60 between them (Burns the lowest at 49.29, Voges the highest at 95). That decision to drop down to 4 was the right one for Australia and allows them to figure out what their best 6 and 7 combination is.

    Compare that to England's dilemma. Hales starting up averages 30, Vince averages 18, Ballance is back in the fold after time away and questions on technique, Stokes isn't here but still only averages 33, Bairstow isn't quite over 40, and Moeen is under 30 again. From 4 to 7, England at Lords have a career average of 33.55. Much is made of our batting depth but this can't cover over a misfiring middle order. If you push Root up the order then it leaves that middle order looking weaker, and we saw at Lords. 

    Ballance did indeed score runs against some lesser lights but it's also right to say that he scored runs against Sri Lanka in a series we ultimately lost and runs in the West Indies when we drew 1-1. I don't count India as a lesser light. He scored heavily against them when they last came here and we're going off there in November. The weight of runs he scored against them in the past makes him a serious candidate for the winter tour. In the England side right now, only Cook and Root average more than Ballance (46.03 versus 46.87 and 52.20). Are we really that strong that we can ignore a bloke who has actually put runs on the board at international level? I don't think so. 

    A lot of the possible selections revolve around whether Stokes is fully fit. I wouldn't pick a non-bowling Stokes as a batsman alone. He is bowling in that Lancs-Durham game and it's likely the England bods will also be looking at Matt Parkinson's leg spin as well with an eye to sending him on some England training in the winter. If Stokes isn't ready then I'd happily sub Borthwick for him. The rough created by the left handers would help an off spinner but equally will help a leg spinner in the form of Rashid who bowls a lot of googlies (too many in my view but never mind...). So if Stokes isn't fully firing, then things could look like this. 

    Cook
    Hales
    Ballance 
    Root
    Bairstow
    Borthwick
    Foster (wk)
    Woakes
    Rashid
    Broad
    Anderson 

    Potentially you could bat Borthwick at 3, Ballance at 5, Bairstow at 6. 

    'course, England won't do this. More chance of Chris bloody Cowdrey being recalled :dissapointed: 








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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 11262
    I see Sam Northeast made 190 today, he's also made 189 and 191.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411


    'course, England won't do this. More chance of Chris bloody Cowdrey being recalled :dissapointed: 


    Talking of old timers Marcus Trescothick is still probably better than Hales or most of the other competitors to open alongside Cook.

    He's just equalled Harold Gimblett's record for first class centuries for Somerset.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    crunchman said:
    Talking of old timers Marcus Trescothick is still probably better than Hales or most of the other competitors to open alongside Cook.

    He's just equalled Harold Gimblett's record for first class centuries for Somerset.
    And he'll probably be better next year as well. Seen him a couple of times this year and he still looks better than most of the younger ones who have tried out for England this year. And now he's got a double ton :)

    Interesting how some of the older players who focus on one format are performing well. Misbah's ton at Lords, Tresco's form this year, Collingwood still going well, Chris Rogers no spring chicken. I really think the future of cricket will involve a separation of long and short form games. 



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