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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11265
    If you look at his series averages over the years, he doesn't often have a stinker. He did have a shit time in Australia and came back from it in NZ. For some reason, he's been the one to attract more criticism than most of the other bowlers when his form is down a bit. When he had knee surgery, it took a while to come back from, not unusual given the nature of that injury. He came back for the World Cup, wasn't match fit, and got nailed by the press. It was a totally unfair nailing and he's stuck it up to them for the most part since. 

    Prior to this Test, Broad has 117 Tests with 411 wickets at 29.15. His record in the first half compared to the second half:

    First 60 Tests: 201 wickets at 31.56
    Next 58 Tests: 213 wickets at 26.65 (Cricinfo's stats include current Test as of 2.32pm)

    When you look at the home/away record in that 58 Test period, he's been consistent.

    Home - 32 Tests, 125 wickets at 25.57
    Away - 23 Tests, 81 wickets at 28.25 
    (there are also 3 neutral Tests: 7 wickets at 47). 

    I reckon people would have grumbled less about his place in the side if he had a few people around him who stuck around and performed better when/if the form dropped. Look at some of the folk he's been bowling with in the last five years: Woakes, Wood, Finn, Chris Jordan, Bess, Leach, Moeen Ali, Rashid, Liam Dawson. None of them are automatic Test selections and one of them has packed up playing the longer form. 

    Watching Anderson and Broad now brings to mind Ambrose and Walsh coming to the end of their career. Not much quality followed those two. 




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  • GassageGassage Frets: 20375
    Sam Curran does look like a kid that's won a competition to 'join the team for a day' in the Yorks Eve Post.

    Donald Trump has spoken movingly about 7-Eleven. It reminded him, he said, of the way Americans came together in 1941 after Pearl Necklace.

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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 4453
    Gassage said:
    Sam Curran does look like a kid that's won a competition to 'join the team for a day' in the Yorks Eve Post.
    I know what you mean surely you have to play a longer game with such guys - No use dropping them in the next match as destroys confidence - Wasim Akram was younger on his debut (17 I think and barely a senior game played) and took no effective wickets for about 3 tests - Regardless of this match Broad and Anderson only have a few more tests in them and it is worrying that little obvious candidates behind them waiting in the wings
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3775
    Gassage said:
    Sam Curran does look like a kid that's won a competition to 'join the team for a day' in the Yorks Eve Post.
    I know what you mean surely you have to play a longer game with such guys - No use dropping them in the next match as destroys confidence - Wasim Akram was younger on his debut (17 I think and barely a senior game played) and took no effective wickets for about 3 tests - Regardless of this match Broad and Anderson only have a few more tests in them and it is worrying that little obvious candidates behind them waiting in the wings
    There is some potential, but we will have to wait to see if it develops. 10 years ago I would have laughed at you if you said Broad would get 400 plus test wickets.  He was not that good when he first came into the team.  Hopefully some of the younger bowlers develop.

    Curran is only 19, so if he can add a bit of pace he could be good.  Jamie Overton seems to be fit again (for the moment) so he could come through.  He's always been faster than his brother.

    Steve Finn is still only 29.  If he can get it together, then there may be three or four good years in him.  Ryan Harris didn't make his debut for Australia until he was 30.

    Jofra Archer looks very good but he won't qualify for England until 2022.  Personally, I think he should be playing for the West Indies though.
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4876
    Sam Curran appears to grunt when he bowls. It's bad enough these days that the stump mics pick up the ceaseless yelling of wicketkeepers at any abll that hits the cut strip, this had to be nipped in the bud.
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4876
    Bloody typical!

    We're doing reasonably well and it's pissing down.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11265
    scrumhalf said:
    Sam Curran appears to grunt when he bowls. It's bad enough these days that the stump mics pick up the ceaseless yelling of wicketkeepers at any abll that hits the cut strip, this had to be nipped in the bud.

    Jon Ayling for Hampshire was bloody awful for the grunt. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4876
    Thankfully the Pakistan keeper hasn't followed in the tradition of Kamran Akmal who used to scream as though he was being impaled on an upturned stump after every delivery.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11265
    With the rain seemingly in for the day, let's have a trip down memory lane:

    ""I knew I was under pressure because you can always tell by the press conferences and the questions you're asked. I know people are there to give opinions but I'm pretty sceptical [of the criticism]. Apparently Michael Atherton had a go at me but I've not read that one. Jonathan Agnew was another giving me loads and I said to him, 'Aggers, come back in five days when I've got 0 and 0 and we've lost and ask me your questions then.' Obviously some people thought I put myself up too early for the team but that's irrelevant now."

    And...

    "I'm not an arrogant guy - everyone knows that. People are just trying to make me out as . . ." He shrugs. "Sometimes there's a bit of . . . not jealousy . . . but when you do well you have to understand that the better you do the more hated you are. I understand that. Look at Nick Faldo at his peak - he was hated all the way through. I'm not saying I'm Nick Faldo but everyone who does well in this country always get slated."

    Yes, it's Michael Vaughan in 2007 responding with a bit of snark to some press criticism. Oh how times change...


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  • I like the look of Sam Curran thought he bowled really well.

    its no coincidence that our world class players (or former/near recent world class players) ie. Cook, Root, Broad and Anderson all made their debuts at a relatively young age.

    get them in and let them develop. 

    Curran will add more pace as he gets older.

    I agree with Michael Vaughan. Criticism of Broad is a little harsh but Broad shouldn’t come out after taking 3 wickets on a green, seaming wicket in May (ok it was June 1st) and say its unjustified. Win the match first...

    If Broad had played in the 90’s he would have been dropped years ago. I think he’s a great bowler. I hope he plays for another 4 years or so and breaks jimmy Anderson’s wicket record. Maybe his problem is he has never had the opportunity to “lead” the attack. For someone who didn’t start bowling until his late teens and played for England a couple of years later....

    @heartfeltdawn I enjoy your cricket knowledge. Despite being a guitar forum, I find myself in the cricket thread more than others!
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  • Prior to this Test, Broad has 117 Tests with 411 wickets at 29.15. His record in the first half compared to the second half:

    First 60 Tests: 201 wickets at 31.56
    Next 58 Tests: 213 wickets at 26.65 (Cricinfo's stats include current Test as of 2.32pm)

    When you look at the home/away record in that 58 Test period, he's been consistent.

    Home - 32 Tests, 125 wickets at 25.57
    Away - 23 Tests, 81 wickets at 28.25 
    (there are also 3 neutral Tests: 7 wickets at 47). 

    Very good stats. Especially when you consider the
    modern era of flat wickets.

    20 years ago, a batsman with an a average of 40+ was considered quality.
    45+ was world class and 50+ was messi/Ronaldo type stats.

    world class bowlers in this era had a bowling average of sub 25.00

    In this era, you’re not really considered a world class batsman unless you average 50-55 and for bowlers it’s sub 30.00 bowling average. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11265
    edited June 2
    I like the look of Sam Curran thought he bowled really well.

    its no coincidence that our world class players (or former/near recent world class players) ie. Cook, Root, Broad and Anderson all made their debuts at a relatively young age.

    get them in and let them develop. 

    Curran will add more pace as he gets older.

    I agree with Michael Vaughan. Criticism of Broad is a little harsh but Broad shouldn’t come out after taking 3 wickets on a green, seaming wicket in May (ok it was June 1st) and say its unjustified. Win the match first...

    If Broad had played in the 90’s he would have been dropped years ago. I think he’s a great bowler. I hope he plays for another 4 years or so and breaks jimmy Anderson’s wicket record. Maybe his problem is he has never had the opportunity to “lead” the attack. For someone who didn’t start bowling until his late teens and played for England a couple of years later....

    @heartfeltdawn I enjoy your cricket knowledge. Despite being a guitar forum, I find myself in the cricket thread more than others!

    Most players do much a debut at a young age. All four of those named demonstrated they had something special about them. In Anderson's case, we almost lost that when his action was tinkered with. Finding the right development is key. Cook debuted in 2003 and played three CC matches. Essex were relegated to Division 2 and Cook's personal tally in 2004 in 12 matches wasn't high with an average of 29. Come 2005 and he pressed on. Second season syndrome is something that Graham Thorpe also suffered from. 

    'tis interesting looking at those 2005 Essex averages. You'll see a then young South African fast bowler delivering an average that looks bloody awful. He turned out alright...

    http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2005/ENG_LOCAL/STATS/ALL_FC-STATS/ENG_LOCAL_ALL_FC_AVS_ESSEX.html

    Sam Curran looks good but his selection smacks of fears about our batting. He's not an opening or first change for England in my view but he is useful with the bat and he's on the right wicket for his current pace and skill level. Maybe he'll shoot up, maybe he'll be the new Irfan Pathan. I do think he's better than Tom though. 


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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4876
    Well, that was unexpectedly quick.

    Such a shame there isn't a third Test to try and decide the series. Still, I'm sure an ODI against Scotland will help maintain standards.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11265
    scrumhalf said:
    Well, that was unexpectedly quick.

    Such a shame there isn't a third Test to try and decide the series. Still, I'm sure an ODI against Scotland will help maintain standards.
    The only standards a Scotland ODI will maintain is the standard time it takes for the groundstaff to get the covers on. 

    What a waste of an opportunity this series has been. Two Tests shoved in early doors, the weather's been erratic, both Tests over in days against two teams. No different to the Kiwis coming over a few years ago: we were shit in one Test, boomtown in the other. 

    We should find a schedule that allows for a Test series of three Tests against one side, then five against another. If it means dropping some international T20 games or ODI games, so be it. The unicorn Test CHampionship says a series can be over a minimum of two Tests: how unlike the ICC to potentially shoot itself in the foot before any matches are played...

    We're really none the wiser after these two Tests. Keaton Jennings is now a shoe-in for the rest of the summer at the top of the order based on scoring 27. Dominic Bess is being hailed as our new first choice spinner based on his catching and batting more than his bowling. Our opening attack is still the same. Our first change attack... god knows. We beat a woeful Pakistan with a teenager bowling late 70mph swing and a Warwickshire guy who hadn't played a first class since since March. 

    One notes that Stokes and Woakes have injury problems. Is this the legacy of the IPL for them? A few years back, Australia had terrible injury problems with bowlers after the first IPL season. Most had played in the IPL. Even some of the batsmen were suffering with fatigue and the like of Ponting and Hussey pulled out during IPL #2. When you look at some of the English players who went to the IPL, it hasn't really done much for them when they've come back here. 

    So with the early Tests being so close to the IPL, would it be more beneficial to tell those players that they won't be picked for Test cricket and that they should play county cricket to get acclimatised to being back in this country again? 


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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11265
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44359048

    A good quiz as it shows the problems England have had with the bowling. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • earwighoneyearwighoney Frets: 1639
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44359048

    A good quiz as it shows the problems England have had with the bowling. 
    A long old list. 

    The turnover for bowlers over the last few years has been truly extraordinary.
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4876
    :p
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  • camfcamf Frets: 734
    :)
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  • camfcamf Frets: 734
    edited June 10
    Surely the 'number one ODI team in the world' crown now goes to today's worthy winners.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3775
    Can't get too upset.  It's only pyjama cricket.
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  • MoominpapaMoominpapa Frets: 475
    @Hick81 Damn you - I almost choked I was laughing so hard at that!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11265
    crunchman said:
    Can't get too upset.  It's only pyjama cricket.
    I'm very happy with the result. It shows how narrow minded the ICC were in reducing the number of nations taking part in the World Cup. A friend of mine was up there and said the atmosphere was brilliant, as good as anywhere he has been, and he's done plenty of overseas tours as a spectator. Smaller venues like that do create atmosphere, as NZ found when they ditched the concrete rugby domes and went more rural. 
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  • earwighoneyearwighoney Frets: 1639

    I'm very happy with the result. It shows how narrow minded the ICC were in reducing the number of nations taking part in the World Cup. A friend of mine was up there and said the atmosphere was brilliant, as good as anywhere he has been, and he's done plenty of overseas tours as a spectator. Smaller venues like that do create atmosphere, as NZ found when they ditched the concrete rugby domes and went more rural. 
    Agree.  It was a great game of cricket and I hate to say it a 'great advert for the game'.

    I saw a fair amount of the ODI WC qualifiers and it was a great shame to have fewer teams for the next WC, especially considering the format when every team will play each other instead of having groups - which will be an incredibly bloated tournament based in endless repetition with the same teams playing each other over and over again; much the same of the current ICC scheduling (how many times will England play Australia over the course of 18 months?)

    Scotland and Zimbabwe were incredibly unlucky to not qualify and it was good to see Scotland show the associate teams are not just there for a laugh.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11265
    I don't think you chaps will be surprised when I say that I have nothing but contempt for the 2019 CWC. It's 46 days of I Really Do Not Give A Fuck. 

    I'm hoping that Afghanistan will play some warm up games close to London/in London as I would love to see their spinners in action. Outside of that... blah. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4876
    The World Cup bears all of the hallmarks of the ICC - play, play and play again. Everyone plays everyone else 16 times and then one team gets eliminated. The repeat for the next century until someone's left.

    The problem with cricket is its susceptibility to bad weather, so a straightforward knock-out leaves too much to chance and you risk teams with the biggest commercial appeal (okay, India) being dumped out by some bizarre Duckworth-Lewis quirk.

    Have 12 teams, two groups of six, everyone plays everyone else twice. Top two in each group so through to semi-finals.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3775
    With groups of 6, everyone paying each other once would still leave 5 matches for each team.  Add semis and a final, and that would be enough.
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  • earwighoneyearwighoney Frets: 1639
    I don't think you chaps will be surprised when I say that I have nothing but contempt for the 2019 CWC. It's 46 days of I Really Do Not Give A Fuck. 

    I'm hoping that Afghanistan will play some warm up games close to London/in London as I would love to see their spinners in action. Outside of that... blah. 
    My disdain lies with the incredibly repetitive scheduling, which often seems completely pointless for example the ODI's against Australia being a prime example considering there is an Ashes series here next year and an away tour completed in the last 6 months or so.  Was there any need to have 5 ODI's in the middle of the summer in an already congested summer, when the time could have been used for some white ball cricket or another test match against Pakistan?

    The format for the WC next year just seems really bloated but I imagine it'll generate a huge amount of revenue for the ICC and ECB and I imagine the payments to Glamorgan & Colin Ingram's salary needs to be generated somehow... 

    Like yourself I am hoping the Afghan team will either play some matches be it warm up games of tournament games in and around London. They were a breath of fresh air to watch in the WC qualifiers, and the spinners Mujeeb and Rashid Khan in the IPL were a delight to watch.  
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  • earwighoneyearwighoney Frets: 1639
    Crazy events in the Windies Sri Lanka test match.  It seems Sri Lanka have been hit with a ball tampering penalty, when there has been no evidence to suggest they were ball tampering. 
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  • Crazy events in the Windies Sri Lanka test match.  It seems Sri Lanka have been hit with a ball tampering penalty, when there has been no evidence to suggest they were ball tampering. 
    Yeah flicking between the Eng b Aus match and the Sri Lanka game. never know until it unfolds but I can’t see the Sri Lankan’s ball tampering full
    stop....yet alone so soon after the Australia ball tampering scandal.

    regaridng the England game, even though he has just taken a wicket, I still don’t rate Mark Wood. When will
    Steven Finn replace him?! 
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4876
    Cracking Royal London semi-final today, Kent winning at Worcs by 2 wickets. Stevo's going to Lords!
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