Sweet home alabama

MatthewShreddery

Please explain @guyboden

If someone asks to play SHA and I say what key, and they say C - am I going to stand there and play G F C C or am I going to play   C Bb F F?

I suspect the latter.

Though I would just say piss off it's in D

BigMonka

MatthewShreddery said:

If someone asks to play SHA and I say what key, and they say C - am I going to stand there and play G F C C or am I going to play   C Bb F F?

I suspect the latter.

That would be awkward when the other, correct, guitarist plays the former ;-) 

Danny1969

MatthewShreddery said:

I agree with all of your keys for those songs. 

I mean, it's not rocket science - it's actually really easy.

Did you notice that a lot of them do not use the 'key' chord (tonic) very much?

Your mistaken, all the above spend more time on the Key chord (tonic) than any other

Now while spending more time on a certain chord doesn't necessary the song is in that key  .... some songs may rest on a non key chord for ages ..... a constant reminder of a songs dominant chord will normally dictate the key. At least as far as choosing a key can go. SHA seems to be a double headed beast with some people like yourselves hearing the D as dominant throughout the entire song and others hearing G as the dominant chord throughout.  

So maybe there's no answer but 9 times out of 10 at a dep gig if you ask what key they do  SHA in  (and it's always in there isn't it fellow wedding \ corp band people ) their gonna say G and expect the first chord to be the D

MatthewShreddery

you lot are weird

BigMonka

MatthewShreddery said:

you lot are weird

lol. Honestly, if I look at the chords D, C, G I can't think of it being in anything other than G (or D mixo, but you've discounted that as being a valid "key"). 

But the way the song is played its one of those riffs where it doesn't naturally end, you always feel like you should go round the riff again, when you get to the D it's crying out for the C then G. When you get to the G it has this weird call on you to go back to the D and start the riff again (not finish on the D, just start it again!).

IMO that's where the weirdness of which key it's in lies.

ElectroDan

This has been a very interesting read.

I remember Frank Gambale in his "Modes: No More Mystery" vid, describing this kind of issue. He was playing D, A, E and saying it couldn't be in E because the presence of the D and E chords suggested that A was the key. His answer was that it was an E modal key (and any man who can combine a Tweetie Pie T-shirt with leather trousers is worth listening to).

https://youtu.be/JeGXz1MujZ4

 

I hate music theory for exactly the kind of argument we have here.

To me SHA uses the key of G but resolves in D. As for soloing... I play what sounds right. For a classic like SHA I replicate the original.

MatthewShreddery

BigMonka said:

MatthewShreddery said:

you lot are weird

lol. Honestly, if I look at the chords D, C, G I can't think of it being in anything other than G (or D mixo, but you've discounted that as being a valid "key"). 

But the way the song is played its one of those riffs where it doesn't naturally end, you always feel like you should go round the riff again, when you get to the D it's crying out for the C then G. When you get to the G it has this weird call on you to go back to the D and start the riff again (not finish on the D, just start it again!).

IMO that's where the weirdness of which key it's in lies.

I haven't discounted it as being a valid key.

My point is that keys do not need to be defined in such detail as to specify the exact mode you might be playing.

It IS in D mixolydian, but there is no need to say this.

It is just D major.

Keys are major or minor.

MatthewShreddery

ElectroDan said:

This has been a very interesting read.

I remember Frank Gambale in his "Modes: No More Mystery" vid, describing this kind of issue. He was playing D, A, E and saying it couldn't be in E because the presence of the D and E chords suggested that A was the key. His answer was that it was an E modal key (and any man who can combine a Tweetie Pie T-shirt with leather trousers is worth listening to).I hate music theory for exactly the kind of argument we have here.

To me SHA uses the key of G but resolves in D. As for soloing... I play what sounds right. For a classic like SHA I replicate the original.

If you say it resolves in D, you are hearing D as the tonal centre. That is the key of the piece. It is in D.

You can write it out using a G major key signature, and you can use this as justification for it being in G, but when you listen to it, it all resolves in D.

It's in D.

MatthewShreddery

Danny1969 said:

Your mistaken, all the above spend more time on the Key chord (tonic) than any other

Now while spending more time on a certain chord doesn't necessary the song is in that key  .... some songs may rest on a non key chord for ages ..... a constant reminder of a songs dominant chord will normally dictate the key. At least as far as choosing a key can go. SHA seems to be a double headed beast with some people like yourselves hearing the D as dominant throughout the entire song and others hearing G as the dominant chord throughout.  

So maybe there's no answer but 9 times out of 10 at a dep gig if you ask what key they do  SHA in  (and it's always in there isn't it fellow wedding \ corp band people ) their gonna say G and expect the first chord to be the D

Hey Joe:  is about 50/50

Alibi: is mostly C# minor, then modulates to relative major, E major, for the chorus. E major chord accounts for very little of the song. 

With or Without you: D chord accounts for about 25% of the chords. All over a D upper pedal.

Panama: very little actual E major chords going on. 

this next bit is not directed at Danny

We know the keys of these songs by being able to hear a clear tonal centre.

Modal or not, the tonal centre is the key.

D mixolydian, is D major. Not G major just because those are where the notes for D mixo come from.

GuyBoden

ElectroDan said:

This has been a very interesting read.

I remember Frank Gambale in his "Modes: No More Mystery" vid, describing this kind of issue. He was playing D, A, E and saying it couldn't be in E because the presence of the D and E chords suggested that A was the key. His answer was that it was an E modal key (and any man who can combine a Tweetie Pie T-shirt with leather trousers is worth listening to).

https://youtu.be/JeGXz1MujZ4

 

I hate music theory for exactly the kind of argument we have here.

To me SHA uses the key of G but resolves in D. As for soloing... I play what sounds right. For a classic like SHA I replicate the original.

Good stuff, that's how I was taught too. If it's Modal, I don't use Functional Harmony music rules.

So, the Modal tonic can be D as in "D Mixolydian", the key signature is G. (F# at the beginning of the sheet.)

But, I still think that that old Gear Page's Sweet Home thread is funnier:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/sweet-home-alabama.407446/

GuyBoden

viz said:

GuyBoden said:

viz said:

GuyBoden said:

The Tonic is D the Key is G.

Nooooo! Key and tonic are synonyms!

Unfortunately, the Tonic and the Key are not the same thing. This is probably the cause of confusion.

@guyboden Can you give an example mate? The tonic and the key and the I chord and the root (root chord, not root note in a chord) are all the same thing in my book. I can't think of a single example where they could ever be seen as different. If the key sig is 1 sharp, then the song is in G or E minor; and the tonic is either G or E minor. As is the I chord, as is the song's 'root'. No?

edit - Maybe you're thinking of, say, a song in E major with flattened 7ths all the way through? Basically based on a E mixolydian scale. Well, then it would still be in the key of E, the tonic and I chord and root chord would still be E, but it would have an D Natural written throughout. You wouldn't say the tonic is A just because the E has flat 7ths (if that's what you mean - I'm trying to understand where you're coming from).

Like for the blues in E, you play E7, right? And you can think of that chord as a secondary dominant when it moves to the IV. Nevertheless it's still the tonic, you don't call A the tonic. That E7 is called a Tonic flat 7, not a dominant 7, because B is the dominant.

But probably that's not what you meant anyway - sorry, just trying to understand your point.

Using contemporary Modal Harmony theory, D Mixolydian is the Tonic "D" and the key signature is G Major ( F# written at the beginning of the music sheet).

viz

Yes I know what you mean, the key signature. But that's not the same as the key. The key is synonymous with the tonic; the signature is just a device to minimise accidentals, though practice on this changes over the centuries. Nowadays both are possible, but the old practice of minimising accidentals is not so common now. So like in Debussy's Sunken Cathedral, he put the key sig as C ionian, though the piece is in G mixo. That's a pretty late example. Whereas in Satriani's Flying in a Blue Dream, in C Lydian, it's normally written as though it's in C Ionian (key sig has no sharps or flats), and every F is sharpened. I personally find this practice more intuitive because it highlights the specific modal flavours every time they happen. Anyway the important thing is to know the key, not the key sig (hence this thread ) - so it's quite important to know that Flying in a Blue Dream is in the key of C (yes it's a Lydian piece), not in G, whichever key sig is chosen to write out the music with. Bartok had key signatures with a mixture of sharps and flats; modern pieces written in, for example, melodic minor ascending throughout, could have a sharp or flat that isn't the traditional starting one (F# or Bb); anyway it should still be clear to most what key the piece is in. And the method is: listen to the song, sing the tonic, the home note, and go to a piano and find that note. That will be the key the song's in.

koneguitarist

Still think it's in G myself, no matter what the argument for D, cause I try not to listen to modes and scales but chords of a song. And the chords point to G major when you add in the F not a F#.

GuyBoden

koneguitarist said:

Still think it's in G myself, no matter what the argument for D, cause I try not to listen to modes and scales but chords of a song. And the chords point to G major when you add in the F not a F#.

That's because analysing it using good old Functional Harmony theory, the chords will point you to GMajor, but actually it's a modal tune and the Tonic is D Mixolydian.

But, never mind, it will still sound the same anyway, so it really doesn't matter.

Good old, Functional Harmony theory is this below:



I'm not sure what you mean by " And the chords point to G major when you add in the F not a F#."

MatthewShreddery

I f'king hate this song now BTW

GuyBoden

MatthewShreddery said:

I f'king hate this song now BTW

You don't need to read the old gear page thread on this topic then:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/sweet-home-alabama.407446/

viz

^ brilliant!

Rox

So... er... what key is Gimme Three Steps in?

I'll be consulting Linda Lu on this one.

RedRabbit

It resolves to Werewolves of London for me.  What key is that in?

MatthewShreddery

LOL - good work chaps!