Line 6 Helix

johnonguitar

Going direct is such a strange thing. Like I TOTALLY get it for large touring acts that are doing numerous festival dates or for that church stuff when some dude needs to be talking over your Edge riffs. Or big stages where you need to be walking around giving it welly so you have in-ears anyway

...but for something like a pub gig or wedding where you're on a tight stage, probably doing your own sound and are standing next to a full acoustic drum kit? (This changes if it's an electric kit but I strongly suggest you leave that band).

Maybe I'm just old but for that type of gig I still just think of the PA as sound reinforcement rather than some sort of large hifi that all the sound should come from.

If the band sounds good, and this is mainly down to whether your drummer is a musician or just a fucking brick handed dumbass like 99% of them, and can actually play without drowning out the band in the venue down the street then the gig may actually go ok.

Everyone seems to be IEM daft these days. Seems to be solving problems that a little musicianship (from drummers) would make disappear 



seriously could could you imagine turning up to play in a jazz trio and needing in ears? Nah, cause everyone's volume SHOULD be balanced. Why not in a pop rock band?

and don't even start me on drummers who start whacking things louder or over playing at the guitar parts or solos. Like wtf is even going through your fucking brain?! Aww here's the guitar bit lets drown it out.

in fact this has just turned into a fucking drummer rant. I hate them. Fuck them. One day when I'm old and good enough I'm gonna just play solo shit like Joe Pass. I think he hated drummers too.

anyway, going direct sucks!

meltedbuzzbox

...because you never see a guitarist that plays louder than everyone else?

johnonguitar

meltedbuzzbox said:

...because you never see a guitarist that plays louder than everyone else?

Aw yeah... But they usually grow out of it by he time they're 19. Drummers are the scourge of the earth. 

guitarfishbay

If a metal or heavy rock drummer hit shells soft the whole band would sound pants though, so it isn't fair to say all loud drummers suck.

Acoustic drums are the final volume frontier. The tone comes from how you hit them. As the drum is both the interface and the amplification they aren't so easily replaced by digital. At least with guitars, basses, and to some extent keyboards, the interface (instrument) feels the same to the player.

Cabicular

johnonguitar said:

meltedbuzzbox said:

...because you never see a guitarist that plays louder than everyone else?

Aw yeah... But they usually grow out of it by he time they're 19. Drummers are the scourge of the earth. 

We've experienced the subtleties of the same drummer I think ..
my current one is great but I've been playing with him for 25 years (it's a long solo). We have a lot of dynamics and interaction during solos and as long as he can hear me he'll react appropriately
Even the gig I was doing last night I had guitar going direct into the PA but the onstage sound was a Marshall 9100 into a pair of orange 1x12s either side of the stage. Stereo is great and it gives Marky the Bass player a cab next to him to keep him right when he's sliding up and down trying to find the key
You need Valve Power (tm) to punch above a drummer
solid state doesn't have the dynamics or the kind of punch to get over a drummer. It's a flat response which is why it always sounds great in the bedroom then disappears on stage
i even tried one of them new fanged Yamaha stereo thr amps and it was the same problem
sounded great at home then either disappeared or totally swamped everything .. Nothing in between

Cabicular

I also stick +7db from the output block onto an exp pedal in all my patches
sounds like a lot but because it's on a pedal you can choose how much you use for solos (but sometimes you need it all)
I also use it to bring up little accents or parts when I need them (like the chord intro to One Vision which sounds really weedy unless you give it the beans ... But you need to be able to back out of it quickly)
The Trooper is amazing with the 3 part intelligent harmony generator.
 I have a second on that part that changes the Harmony from a straight fifth on the intro to the three part for the main bit
I Honestly couldn't gig without this thing 

fretmeister

I'm redoing a lot of my patches with the new Modded 2204. It's fantastic.

John_A

Haven't rehearsed with the Helix yet, but today had it wound up through a RCF 710.  One thing that amazed me is it doesn't feel like you're listening to a recorded amp, it feels like a real amp.  
Other modellers I've tried sounded great recorded, but this feels right,  I compared  my pre amp/cab out through a Plexi and 2x12 cab to my post amp/cab going FRFR and there isn't a great deal in it. Loving this thing

John_A

Still undecided on how to use the Helix live.  Most of my sound currently comes from backline, as does the other guitarist, so it seems daft me going direct to FOH while he continues to use a 'proper' amp.

Tried the FRFR approach with a RCF 710 - sounds great but would need to buy one as it's part of the PA, also not sure what this hi-fi sound would work like with another guitarist.

Tried in to the FX return of my Jet City and in to a proper cab, when doing this would you advise removing the cab emulation from my stage patch and just running it on the XLR to to FOH?

Also tried my EHX Magnum 44 which still impresses me, would certainly do for monitoring if some of my sound was going to FOH

Cabicular

John_A said:

Still undecided on how to use the Helix live.  Most of my sound currently comes from backline, as does the other guitarist, so it seems daft me going direct to FOH while he continues to use a 'proper' amp.

Tried the FRFR approach with a RCF 710 - sounds great but would need to buy one as it's part of the PA, also not sure what this hi-fi sound would work like with another guitarist.

Tried in to the FX return of my Jet City and in to a proper cab, when doing this would you advise removing the cab emulation from my stage patch and just running it on the XLR to to FOH?

Also tried my EHX Magnum 44 which still impresses me, would certainly do for monitoring if some of my sound was going to FOH

Personally I would use the fX ret if the jet city
take the cab emulation out but put in a simple eq block in its place as you will have to really calm it down
that way you get the best of all worlds
i split my path at the end and send the 1/4 straight out but have a seperate path for the xlr with cab emulation
so FOH gets an emulated can and the 1/4 out is standard

John_A

Thanks for that @Cabicular wonder why the amps are so bright when not going via a cab emulation?  You would expect a pre-cab out going through a guitar cab should sound the same as going through a cab emulation wouldn't you?

Could it be an idea to run just the preamp in to the Jet City and the full amp to FRFR or do you think that's overkill?

*EDIT*  Just tried it and the preamp only model is better in to the FX return of the JC than the full amp/cab but don't have enough DSP oomph to run the preamp on one path and the full amp/cab to FRFR.

A simple EQ block rolling off about 6db of top does sound pretty good too though.  How are you setting up your EQ block?

A super nice touch @Digital_Igloo would be a virtual pre-amp out of the main full amp mode that you could connect to another path.  I'll expect that in V2.01

Cabicular

Don't split the pre amp
split the amp and cab sounds better too

Cabicular

I take out most stuff above 6k and below 80
with a wee notch in the middle under 2k

Pwalo

So after 6 months of lurking behind the parapet I've gone and bought one. 2 hours in and I've got a cracking main-do most things patch. My question is - does anyone use a DT25 or 50 amp with the L6 link? I had an HD500 which used to interact with the DT but the Helix looks like it doesn't do much. Is there any further progress to be made if I used an FRFR amp?

John_A

Well had my first rehearsal with the Helix last night and it sounded 'OK'  The patches that sounded great through my studio monitors were a bit buzzy going direct to the PA, so I used an EQ block after the cab to roll off some highs.  It was OK but think a bit more tweaking is required.  The desk was set flat.  Which got me thinking -

If a guitar speaker's frequency response rolls off significantly after X Hz then a cab emulation would do the same.  So the output of the cab emulation should not contain any frequency above X Hz.

If that were the case why would turning up the high end on the desk do anything at all, and why would a FRFR speaker sound any different to a guitar speaker?

Cabicular

Because you are  emulating a miced up cab with a mic that is picking up all sorts of other high freqencies
you aren't just emulating a guitar speaker 
even when you mic up a cab in a studio you usually have to tame the top and bottom end
See posts on FRFR for more info (I really don't think it works for me as a live guitarist apart from at the FOH end which I don't really hear)
the cabs themselves have high and low pass filters (which is one of the reasons people prefers the imported IRs as a lot of that eq is done for them)
trudt your ears and don't be afraid to lop off a lot to get rid of the fizz
also don't forget your old freind midrange. It's really easy to get a pleasant scooped out sound without realising that is what is happening. My EQ block adds a lot of midrange back into the signal for volume work
i can then disable it at home to make it more pleasant at lower volumes

hugbot

A guitar speaker sounds different depending on where it's micced from or where you're standing in relation to it. A modeller going into a FRFR is modelling a guitar speaker plus microphone position. Also, monitors PAs and FRFRs aren't actually totally flat, depending on the model. They're just flat-er than other speakers.

Cabicular

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/69507/frfr-is-there-any-point/p1

Sporky

That might be a nice addition then - as you increase the master volume, have an associated EQ block that goes from one set of settings to another.

Cabicular

Easy enough to do it manually plus it would rely on the Helix knowing what volume was happening externally . A lot of guys have the big knob full up
I sit with mine about half way
plus it's totally disabled for the XLRs as I want to be able to turn up my backline (or down ... But mainly up) without affecting FOH