Quartal harmony

ThePrettyDamned

Okay, hit me. I don't get it.

E-A is a fourth. A-D is a fourth. D-G is a fourth.

So why is it that when I bar all of these on any fret it sounds like poop? Is it the distance between notes? Or have I completely misunderstood quartal harmony?

I fancy trying some twists on common progressions and thought this would be a nice thing to try when playing, for example, em, d, c or something.

octatonic

Quartal harmony is creating chords out of stacks of 4th's, rather than stacks of 3rds.

It will be challenging to listen to and harder to create for.

Give it time.

If you are looking for a more accessible composer then try Webern.

Schoenberg can be challenging.

viz

You'll typically only bar 3 strings, or two 4th intervals. Any more and it will clash and get muddy (though see BJ's examples below lol). It works really well over a bass pedal, so for example giving some bass rhythm with the A open string and noodling on the A pentatonic, except instead of single notes, play two 4ths, ie:

x 0 x x x x (that's the bottom A lol)

x x x 7 8 8 (2 4ths, starting on the C of A penta)
x x x 4 5 5
x x 7 7 8 x
x x 4 4 5 x
Etc.

Explore that for starters.

bigjon

The classic progression for quartal harmony is Miles Davis' So What with a vamp over a Dminor between two chords which are BASICALLY G/D and Dm, though made more complicated by the quartal harmony extras. After 16 bars it shifts up to Ebminor for 8 bars, then back to Dminor for another 8 bars.

Try the Ronny Jordan version for a very playable guitaristic rendition, he uses x7778x for the G/D chord and x5556x for the Dm chord.

x7778x is quartal harmony down in 4ths from the G at the top on the 2nd string, whereas x5556x is quartal harmony up in 4ths from the D at the bottom on the 5th string.

bigjon

I fancy trying some twists on common progressions and thought this would be a nice thing to try when playing, for example, em, d, c or something.

Look no further than, er, What You're Made Of by Lucie Silvas!

First chords are Em, D and C played in quartal harmony (on the piano). When we cover this song with my pop duo I play

Em: 079977 (actually is Emsus2 as the notes are F# B E down in 4ths from an E)

x57755 (same two frets down, there's an F# in the bass but I don't bother)

C: x35533 (same again another two frets down)

ThePrettyDamned

@bigjon @viz @octatonic thanks chaps.

I'll look into those songs @bigjon. What's the deal with all the sus 2 chords? I often like playing the Andy summers add 9 shape from message in a bottle (I think it's add 9 anyway!) and has a similar voice to a sus 2, but they don't sound jazzy.

How would you play a major or a minor chord in quartal harmony? Sus2 chords may work but lack the thirds so the voicing is "empty" - is this where a cracking bassist comes in to fix the voicing?

ThePrettyDamned

@viz that's one to do with my recording kit. One day I'll own a looper pedal and this stuff will be much easier!

viz

You can pick it while you're plucking the noodle stuff - no need for a looper!

thomasross20

Wow, we cover some good ground on this forum .

I've never done much of this but pretty cool!

bigjon

ThePrettyDamned;668197" said:

I'll look into those songs @bigjon. What's the deal with all the sus 2 chords? I often like playing the Andy summers add 9 shape from message in a bottle (I think it's add 9 anyway!) and has a similar voice to a sus 2, but they don't sound jazzy.

Sus2 triads chords get formed automatically in quartal harmony when 2 fourth intervals are stacked downwards from the root note. Same triad stacked upwards from the 5th degree gives you a sus4 chord with the root in the middle eg G C F is a Csus4 chord AND an Fsus2 chord.

A very common voicing of this triad in pop piano (e.g. Bruce Hornsby) is C F G C low to high, same notes whether played as Csus4 or Fsus2. On guitar this would be x x 10 10 8 8. Also works really well over a D bass as a Dm7add11, over Eb as Eb6add9, over G as G7sus4, over Ab as Abmaj7add13, and over Bb as Bbsus2add13!!

bigjon

ThePrettyDamned;668197" said:

@bigjon @viz @octatonic thanks chaps.


How would you play a major or a minor chord in quartal harmony? Sus2 chords may work but lack the thirds so the voicing is "empty" - is this where a cracking bassist comes in to fix the voicing?

To get proper major or minor chords in quartal harmony you need to stack 2 more 4ths, upwards from the sus4 triad for minor, downwards from the sus2 triad for major.
So add a Bb and an Eb on top of the G C F sus4 triad and you get a Cm7add11/G chord 33334x (that's essentially the chord used in 'So What' - its a lot easier to play than it is to describe!)
Likewise, add a D then an A going downwards below the G C F sus2 triad and you get an F6add9/A chord 55556x a La 'Peg' by Steely Dan.

jazzlemming

Some more examples...including augmented as well as perfect 4ths.

E, A, D, G - xx2233

If the bass player plays a C, then you've got a C69 - perfect if you need a C major chord.

Now move every note in that chord up one degree in the C major scale...

F, B, E, A - xx3455

which, over a D, is a Dm69

And move it up again...

G, C, F, B - xx5567

Over E is an Emb6b9

Rinse and repeat...

Now you'll have a complete set of 4-note quartal voicings starting on the D string. You can then learn them starting on the A string, then E string (although possibly not as useful down there!). Any of these chords can be used over any note in C major (to start off with!), but will have different sounds.

The cool thing with quartal chords is that they are obscure, they can be used over lots of different bass notes to get lots of different chords. Equally, you can use them over a one-chord vamp to create movement and tension. For example, all the above chords (those 3 plus the ones I didn't write out) can be used to comp over a D minor (Dorian) vamp.

ThePrettyDamned

What's a d minor dorian vamp?

Other than that, that sounds useful. So... Just try them over different bass notes? Are jazz basslines generally quite boring to let jazz chords work then?

viz

Just chords based around d minor with a sharpened 6th.

jazzlemming

viz said:

Just chords based around d minor with a sharpened 6th.

Yes! But if I am going to be a pedantic git then it's a major 6th, not a sharpened 6th!

ThePrettyDamned said:

What's a d minor dorian vamp?

Other than that, that sounds useful. So... Just try them over different bass notes? Are jazz basslines generally quite boring to let jazz chords work then?

As above, a vamp is like an improvised accompaniment. I can say to my band, just vamp on D whilst I tune up/get a drink etc. They'll just play until I cue them in.

Quartal chords are often used when a tune has only a few modal chords, such as "So What" mentioned above. They don't suit cadences very well (like a ii v i in jazz music). I'm not sure about "letting the chords work." Quartal chords can sound empty/open, like someone said. They're not very dense-souding like some jazz chords. Due to their nature their notes are spread out, and you sometimes don't have a third in the chord.

A bass player would just "walk" using the notes from a D Dorian scale (D, E, F, G, A, B, C - same notes as a C major scale).

Jazz bass lines are not particularly boring, no! The bass player will play, usually on every beat, any of the notes from the scale (for example D Dorian) and emphasise the 1st, 3rd and 5th (D, F and A) in order to root the harmony in D minor. Then he/she might use chromatic passing notes to help movement, if that makes sense.

If you're playing alone, then you could hit the open A string or E string and play those quartal voicings to hear how they sound over the top. If you're playing with someone else, get them to walk in D minor (with a major 6th) or D minor pentatonic or just hit Ds! Then play through all of those voicings (seven in total) and you'll hear the quartal sound

PS. This is all, so far, using only notes from C major (C, D, E, F, G, A, . It's good to stick to one key at first.

matt1973

Not done much with quartal harmony but I know it can be used to good effect when you want to create a suspended feel. IE a good way not give away too much harmonically. A good vehicle for modal Jazz.

viz

jazzlemming said:

viz said:

Just chords based around d minor with a sharpened 6th.

Yes! But if I am going to be a pedantic git then it's a major 6th, not a sharpened 6th!

ThePrettyDamned said:

What's a d minor dorian vamp?

Other than that, that sounds useful. So... Just try them over different bass notes? Are jazz basslines generally quite boring to let jazz chords work then?

As above, a vamp is like an improvised accompaniment. I can say to my band, just vamp on D whilst I tune up/get a drink etc. They'll just play until I cue them in.

Quartal chords are often used when a tune has only a few modal chords, such as "So What" mentioned above. They don't suit cadences very well (like a ii v i in jazz music). I'm not sure about "letting the chords work." Quartal chords can sound empty/open, like someone said. They're not very dense-souding like some jazz chords. Due to their nature their notes are spread out, and you sometimes don't have a third in the chord.

A bass player would just "walk" using the notes from a D Dorian scale (D, E, F, G, A, B, C - same notes as a C major scale).

Jazz bass lines are not particularly boring, no! The bass player will play, usually on every beat, any of the notes from the scale (for example D Dorian) and emphasise the 1st, 3rd and 5th (D, F and A) in order to root the harmony in D minor. Then he/she might use chromatic passing notes to help movement, if that makes sense.

If you're playing alone, then you could hit the open A string or E string and play those quartal voicings to hear how they sound over the top. If you're playing with someone else, get them to walk in D minor (with a major 6th) or D minor pentatonic or just hit Ds! Then play through all of those voicings (seven in total) and you'll hear the quartal sound

PS. This is all, so far, using only notes from C major (C, D, E, F, G, A, . It's good to stick to one key at first.

that's why I said sharpened not sharp - I was using the verb to indicate the difference, sharpened by one semitone, from the minor 6th of Aeolian. You can't say majored.

jazzlemming

Okay, I guess it makes sense if you're comparing it to an Aeolian scale!

GuyBoden

Mixing Close, Open and Spread voicings for fourths (Quartal) works for me, inversions of fourths make nice Fifths (Quintal).

So, for example: D,G,C in fourths vertically across the fretboard or inverted as C, G, D in fifths diagonally across the fretboard.


Close voicing is when the notes are within an octave.

Open voicing is when the notes are more than an octave.

Spread voicing is an Open voicing when the Root note is in the bass. (Pads)

GuyBoden

Good Stuff here:

carlos

All quartal chords