The difference between a Key and a Mode

viz

In many cases, the key signature can define the key (obviously) AND the root, even if the mode is not Ionian. In other words, you might write a piece in C, with all the B's as B Flats. ie the piece is based on C mixolydian scale, and every time a B pops up, you give it an accidental. That's perfectly OK, you wouldn't have to write the key sig as though it were in F with one flat. Look at Danny Elfman's sheet music for The Simpsons, which is based on the Lydian scale (actually the overtone scale because it has a flat 7 near the end, but that's beside the by). It has a key signature of no sharps or flats, and it starts off in C. Every time there's an F, it has to have a sharp. Then it modulates through a few keys till it ends up in Db with accidentals all over the place. The key signature defined the start key, despite the piece not being based on that key's ionian scale. 

On the other hand, you might decide to use the key sig to minimise the number of accidentals. You might use a key signature as though the piece is based on that key's ionian scale, but actually write the piece based on the mixolydian scale, a 5th up. For example, Debussy's cathedral engloutie, which has no sharps or flats, looks like it's written in C major, but is actually in G with all the F's as F naturals without accidentals, not F sharps. ie it's based on the G mixolydian scale. Check it out.

Obviously the latter is akin to writing a piece in A minor with the key signature of no sharps or flats, which is obviously quite normal. You wouldn't write it in A major with 3 sharps, and then put natural signs in front of every C#, F# and G#!

 

thomasross20

So. No one way to do it.
I view the whole fretboard as a modal map. I fuse that with the CAGED system so I can play anywhere I want. From the modes I pick out the notes for pentatonics, chords and arpeggios. The modes have ALL the notes so I start from that full painting and then choose the bits that interest me.

I'm proper memorising the fretboard and all note names now having done many jamplay lessons so far. But I have to say... I'm much more of a "shapes" player. I often find (not always the case!) that with too much technique/theory the emotion can be lost. You know what I'm saying... I definitely focus on the sound and shapes. Especially at speed - it HAS to be pattern based at that point.

I find there's so much to memorise I've barely moved away from the major scale modes. But I'm hoping that as long as I can use them to full effect...

viz

mike_l said:

I'd go with playing each mode in a single key to hear the differences.

So in (for example) G

G major

G Dorian

Etc

That'll explain things way better.

Correct, because the fact the G Dorian is a SCALE, is at least as important as the fact that it's also a Mode of F Ionian. 

Then when you know how it sounds, you can reinforce that with pieces that use it. Eg Greensleeves, what shall we do with the drunken sailor, etc. 

mike_l

viz said:

mike_l said:

I'd go with playing each mode in a single key to hear the differences.

So in (for example) G

G major

G Dorian

Etc

That'll explain things way better.

Correct, because the fact the G Dorian is a SCALE, is at least as important as the fact that it's also a Mode of F Ionian. 

Then when you know how it sounds, you can reinforce that with pieces that use it. Eg Greensleeves, what shall we do with the drunken sailor, etc. 

I was more thinking that G is the key, Ionian/Dorian etc is the scale.

viz

Exactly. If it's based on G dorian, it could have nothing whatsoever to do with the key of F. Your comment of the key is G, the scale is dorian, is absolutely correct. It can just be thought of as a scale in its own right with its own root, as can all the diatonic scales. 

Just to build on what you say, it is obviously important to group the 3 major modes and the 3 minor modes together. So as Dorian is a minor scale, if one wanted to notate it (and not use the approach of having the key sig of F major - 1 flat - ie the same as G dorian), one would say the key is G Minor (2 flats), but every Eb is made into an E natural, rather than G major (1 sharp) with the B flattened and the F naturalled. I know you weren't talking about notation but thought it useful as an add-on point. 

thomasross20

Guys, if you're playing c mixolydian in the 3rd fret area what shape do you play? Same as me? From the point of view of the E string I'd play the E shape G Dorian scale but with root C on the A string. IMO that's the best way as you've immediately unlocked all notes in that area of the fretboard

thomasross20

In the HEAT of the moment, with chords changing (admittedly I usually play songs where a chord set imply one mode so I don't have to think too much!)... I just want to know how you navigate the fretboard. I assume you all pivot back to a root note point (CAGED) but the shapes differ depending which part of the fretboard you're in. I basically remember the E and A CAGED shapes for all modes so I can cover a large area of the fretboard - and I intend to expand this to G, C and D shapes - lots to remember.

frankus

thomasross20 said:

So. No one way to do it.
I view the whole fretboard as a modal map. I fuse that with the CAGED system so I can play anywhere I want. From the modes I pick out the notes for pentatonics, chords and arpeggios. The modes have ALL the notes so I start from that full painting and then choose the bits that interest me.

I'm proper memorising the fretboard and all note names now having done many jamplay lessons so far. But I have to say... I'm much more of a "shapes" player. I often find (not always the case!) that with too much technique/theory the emotion can be lost. You know what I'm saying... I definitely focus on the sound and shapes. Especially at speed - it HAS to be pattern based at that point.

I find there's so much to memorise I've barely moved away from the major scale modes. But I'm hoping that as long as I can use them to full effect...

I would love that kind of knowledge!

I'd think that as long as you know the function of the notes in the scale patterns, you'd be able to figure out most of the popular modes:

Lydian is major with a #4

Mixolydian is a major with a b7

Melodic Minor is a major with a b3

Dorian is a Minor with a natural 6

Phrygian is a Minor with a flat 2

if you think of the enharmonic minor and it's major - it's the same notes A Phrygian =~ C Mixolydian.

But I don't think in that way (and wish I could) so I don't know if I'm saying something that's helpful

 

Roland

thomasross20 said:

So. No one way to do it ... I'm much more of a "shapes" player. I often find (not always the case!) that with too much technique/theory the emotion can be lost. You know what I'm saying... I definitely focus on the sound and shapes. Especially at speed - it HAS to be pattern based ...

Thomas speaks sense

GuyBoden

viz said:

If it's based on G dorian, it could have nothing whatsoever to do with the key of F. Your comment of the key is G, the scale is dorian, is absolutely correct. It can just be thought of as a scale in its own right with its own root, as can all the diatonic scales.

Well done Viz.

GuyBoden

frankus said:

thomasross20 said:

So. No one way to do it.
I view the whole fretboard as a modal map. I fuse that with the CAGED system so I can play anywhere I want. From the modes I pick out the notes for pentatonics, chords and arpeggios. The modes have ALL the notes so I start from that full painting and then choose the bits that interest me.

I'm proper memorising the fretboard and all note names now having done many jamplay lessons so far. But I have to say... I'm much more of a "shapes" player. I often find (not always the case!) that with too much technique/theory the emotion can be lost. You know what I'm saying... I definitely focus on the sound and shapes. Especially at speed - it HAS to be pattern based at that point.

I find there's so much to memorise I've barely moved away from the major scale modes. But I'm hoping that as long as I can use them to full effect...

I would love that kind of knowledge!

I'd think that as long as you know the function of the notes in the scale patterns, you'd be able to figure out most of the popular modes:

Lydian is major with a #4

Mixolydian is a major with a b7

Melodic Minor is a major with a b3

Dorian is a Minor with a natural 6

Phrygian is a Minor with a flat 2

if you think of the enharmonic minor and it's major - it's the same notes A Phrygian =~ C Mixolydian.

But I don't think in that way (and wish I could) so I don't know if I'm saying something that's helpful

 

Yes, knowing the notes on the Whole fretboard in the most commonly used scales makes playing much easier, that's why I started the Fretboard lessons in the Technique section.

This link:
http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/43139/fretboard-lesson-using-3-notes-per-string

thomasross20

Kudos on your 3nps lesson. I can't say I use that much though - it's like viewing a small part of a larger scale - so how do you fill in the space around those notes? Maybe I just view it differently. 

I know the degrees of each of the modes and I treat each as if were its own key (as discussed). Rather than view each as some parent shape (major or minor) then tweak notes here and there I just memorise the shapes. Jazzers say better to play the chord and arpeggios for each chord - and when chords are whizzing by I'd agree - stick to chord tones! But I find that a tad restrictive. 

Have to say you can memorise all this without the guitar in your hands - helps me when I run because I focus on this rather than the running and tend not to stop for breath so much! It's easy to be lazy though. I have started saying notes aloud as I play them (not at speed!) and have had to push myself to learn the G and C shapes fully for each mode (lot of work!). But anything worth doing requires effort. 

frankus

I know the 3nps, 2nps pentatonics, 4nps, caged, pentatonic, arps and loads of chords - that stuff is easy, there are shit-loads of books about it, youtube videos - but I've been lucky enough to have lessons with Dario Cortese, Lee Hodgson, Seth Govern, Phil Robson and Justin Sandercoe - I know what, why and how.

That is not the problem.

The problem is having time to dedicate to learning sounds, intervals, note functions, where it all overlaps to the extent where I can extemporise it .. at the same time as being a gainfully employed, husband, father, band-member, martial-artist and cross-fit monster and diy pedal tinkerer.

At the same time I'm trying to figure this stuff out, I'm trying to figure out the kata and application of kata for my latest belt, what my diet lacks, what muscles I need to stretch, how to get my youngest to eat more greens and my eldest to do something rewarding during his holidays, how to keep the magic in my marriage alive, how to get to the gym more and keep my boss happy, where the money for my next muay thai class is coming from, and whether the singer settled on 16 bars or 4 for the intro for the new song we jammed last Monday and are playing at a gig tomorrow and whether I'll mod the Rat pedal for that gig.

It's not a case of prioritising, I am the nexus of all those things and will be so for as long as possible, NOW as that person, I can look at young Tigger (as Tom used to be called by some of us ... 12 years ago) and I can admire and be inspired. I don't need constant education and frankly - I resent it

GuyBoden

thomasross20 said:

Kudos on your 3nps lesson. I can't say I use that much though - it's like viewing a small part of a larger scale - so how do you fill in the space around those notes? Maybe I just view it differently. 

I know the degrees of each of the modes and I treat each as if were its own key (as discussed). Rather than view each as some parent shape (major or minor) then tweak notes here and there I just memorise the shapes. Jazzers say better to play the chord and arpeggios for each chord - and when chords are whizzing by I'd agree - stick to chord tones! But I find that a tad restrictive. 

Have to say you can memorise all this without the guitar in your hands - helps me when I run because I focus on this rather than the running and tend not to stop for breath so much! It's easy to be lazy though. I have started saying notes aloud as I play them (not at speed!) and have had to push myself to learn the G and C shapes fully for each mode (lot of work!). But anything worth doing requires effort. 

I see the whole fretboard as being made from smaller patterns (see below). I spent a lot of time when I was younger learning the fretboard, as I studied music at college as a young teenager. Yes, playing each note slowly and singing each note name/interval is a very good practice routine, because it trains your ears as well, but I've not done that exercise for quite a few years.

 

GuyBoden

frankus said:

The problem is having time to dedicate to learning sounds, intervals, note functions, where it all overlaps to the extent where I can extemporise it .. at the same time as being a gainfully employed, husband, father, band-member, martial-artist and cross-fit monster and diy pedal tinkerer.

Yes I agree, finding the time is the big problem..... 

thomasross20

Oh how time flies!
Thank you!

I've been speaking (through jamplay live web sessions) some pros from a range of styles but have yet to get a conclusive answer as the best way to KNOW the fretboard so well you can play anything anywhere immediately. I've got feedback what I'm doing is good though.

Like you say, you know lots... It's just about the application of that knowledge in the heat of the moment.

Impressed at the list of things you do! I'm hoping to get my album out by the end of the year

thomasross20

Guy - that's pretty much how I see the fretboard. Those patterns. Patterns 6&7 I tend to meld as well as patterns 2&3 (since only semitone between them on the bass string) - this leads to 5 patterns - CAGED. Tricky bit is also linking those patterns / playing "in between" the patterns. 

Please continue to post - good to learn from somebody who has specifically studied the subject! 

How do you approach soloing over rapidly changing chords? 

I admit I rarely play melodic & harmonic minor modes. Maybe when back from holiday I'll give them a play through again and see if they're worth memorising (I know, not too many differences compared to the main shapes but still...). 

I hate to bang on about it but I'm finding jamplay SUCH a great resource. I think I will be occupied for years!

GuyBoden

thomasross20 said:

How do you approach soloing over rapidly changing chords? 

I can't play over complex rapidly changing chords without resorting to playing the same old licks, so I avoid playing rapidly changing chords.

thomasross20

Snap!!

viz

viz said:

In many cases, the key signature can define the key (obviously) AND the root, even if the mode is not Ionian. In other words, you might write a piece in C, with all the B's as B Flats. ie the piece is based on C mixolydian scale, and every time a B pops up, you give it an accidental. That's perfectly OK, you wouldn't have to write the key sig as though it were in F with one flat. Look at Danny Elfman's sheet music for The Simpsons, which is based on the Lydian scale (actually the overtone scale because it has a flat 7 near the end, but that's beside the by). It has a key signature of no sharps or flats, and it starts off in C. Every time there's an F, it has to have a sharp. Then it modulates through a few keys till it ends up in Db with accidentals all over the place. The key signature defined the start key, despite the piece not being based on that key's ionian scale. 

On the other hand, you might decide to use the key sig to minimise the number of accidentals. You might use a key signature as though the piece is based on that key's ionian scale, but actually write the piece based on the mixolydian scale, a 5th up. For example, Debussy's cathedral engloutie, which has no sharps or flats, looks like it's written in C major, but is actually in G with all the F's as F naturals without accidentals, not F sharps. ie it's based on the G mixolydian scale. Check it out.

Obviously the latter is akin to writing a piece in A minor with the key signature of no sharps or flats, which is obviously quite normal. You wouldn't write it in A major with 3 sharps, and then put natural signs in front of every C#, F# and G#!

Side note on the above; the first method is much more common recently. In traditional modal music, the 2nd method is more common. In the 17th and 18th centuries for example they'd do it simply out of practicality - to reduce the number of accidentals within a piece. 

In fact some pieces claimed to be modal but were actually not consistent throughout (indeed like Greensleeves). So in some cases you'd have a piece that claimed to be in, say F lydian, but instead of having a key sig of C, it would have a key sig of F (one flat), as though to naturalise all the Bs, but actually when it came to it, very few were naturalised because Bb was often the intended note and the piece wasn't really lydian at all.