The difference between a Key and a Mode

frankus

GuyBoden said:

frankus said:

yep thinking gets in the way of muscle memory, several studies show that

I don't mind learning stuff for an exam, the qualification will hopefully have some use.

I like learning stuff, it's just the way I am, but we're all different.

I didn't know that muscles had memory, I thought that the brain had the memory cells. 

 

I like learning stuff too, but not for the sake of learning - seems like procrastination. I like little bits of trivia, they help glue important bits of information together.

 

Despite the name, muscle memory refers to fine motor skills just as much as gross motor skills. Certainly most of my guitar tutors have referred to it.

  

Research shows that muscle memory does a wonderful job of stuff provided the frontal lobe doesn't interrupt - and here I think there's a word of caution to intellectuals - if you work the frontal lobes as much as you work the cerebellum on a subject the two compete and the motor cortex gets confused

 

There is such a thing as over-intellectualisation, but it's apparent in extemporising rather than debating.

 

GuyBoden

frankus said:

GuyBoden said:

frankus said:

yep thinking gets in the way of muscle memory, several studies show that

I don't mind learning stuff for an exam, the qualification will hopefully have some use.

I like learning stuff, it's just the way I am, but we're all different.

I didn't know that muscles had memory, I thought that the brain had the memory cells. 

 

I like learning stuff too, but not for the sake of learning - seems like procrastination. I like little bits of trivia, they help glue important bits of information together.

 

Despite the name, muscle memory refers to fine motor skills just as much as gross motor skills. Certainly most of my guitar tutors have referred to it.

  

Research shows that muscle memory does a wonderful job of stuff provided the frontal lobe doesn't interrupt - and here I think there's a word of caution to intellectuals - if you work the frontal lobes as much as you work the cerebellum on a subject the two compete and the motor cortex gets confused

 

There is such a thing as over-intellectualisation, but it's apparent in extemporising rather than debating.

 

I just type on the internet for a bit of a break from working, if I had my guitar I wouldn't be typing....

Handsome_Chris

I don't know too much of this theory stuff. Does this mean that I can't write music anymore?

thomasross20

viz said:

Omg thanks!

Heat of the moment!!

Hahaha

thomasross20

Jalapeno said:

thomasross20 said:

Yep I know  

Standard patterns or not - they still scare me!! 

It's pretty simple when you hear them a lot, you need to practice this stuff in context rather than writing about them on Internet forums

Definitely!!!

viz

I was literally getting off a plane at the time lol

thomasross20

frankus said:

I like learning stuff too, but not for the sake of learning - seems like procrastination. 

 

Yes - so I'm wary of watching too many jamplay vids and not actually getting round to trying out ideas. It's all about the playing (certainly not about the gear!!)

frankus

GuyBoden said:

I just type on the internet for a bit of a break from working, if I had my guitar I wouldn't be typing....

I don't think anyone would disagree with that sentiment

koneguitarist

Why don't you all just play notes that sound right? In gigs spanning 37years I have never been asked what mode or scale I am playing, maybe that's more down to my lack of knowledge as I couldn't answer the question anyway! ">

viz

I think that happens as well - I think it's just that some people are interested in the construct as well as the sound. Some people (I for one) are naturally fascinated by maths, and the theory side of music turns us on I guess. Takes all sorts etc.

thomasross20

I'd only play what sounded right IF I COULD. Problem is I want to know what the "right" notes are and only then throw in the "wrong" ones for some chromaticism. I could never play without knowing the basic shapes but that's just me!

koneguitarist

Don't get me wrong not knocking it, just don't understand it.

And I am not going to go into the feel debate over technique, but I am sure the notes are all the same,

 it's not our knowledge of the fretboard modes that makes us more musical but our inherent musical ability that makes our choice of note interesting.

Hope that makes sense? 

viz

koneguitarist said:

Don't get me wrong not knocking it, just don't understand it.

And I am not going to go into the feel debate over technique, but I am sure the notes are all the same,

 it's not our knowledge of the fretboard modes that makes us more musical but our inherent musical ability that makes our choice of note interesting.

Hope that makes sense? 

It certainly does, and I think most of us who feel comfortable playing whatever's in our head/heart would say it comes relatively naturally, but learning is a huuuuge part of it, and I don't just mean learning to play the instrument. I mean learning music as well. All those amazing composers didn't only rely on something innate alone, they had a gruelling musical upbringing. It's nature and nurture, just as it is with anyone at the peak of their profession, right? Sports people, scientists, artists, you name it. Imo.

thomasross20

Have to say when I watch modal lessons online it's usually accompanied by some bad alternate picking and same-ish lines. 

I quite enjoy looking at it from a more arpeggio-based approach (though like I say, I do pick the notes from the mode!)

daveyh

I treat modes as the key. Works well and it's never caused me any problems.

MatthewShreddery

I don't think the answer in the OP was too bad.

Modes are just scales. They each have their own unique colour and mood. 

Really, modes could just be called moods (to quote Frank Gambale from a recent clinic of his).

Key just tells you which note is tonic, and usually implies a tonal centre.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from people trying to learn things from a theoretical perspective, before they have even learnt what the scales sound like.

A bit like trying to learn a language by reading a dictionary.

I'm not entirely sure what the full question actually is. 

Are you asking with regards to how you'd notate a key/mode, and any differences thenceforth? 

Or are you asking more from an aural perspective; what are the differences in the way they sound?

I really don't think there is a difference between a key and a mode. It's all just sound, and as most of us play music by ear I'd sooner be able to hear the tonal implications of a set of chords or even a static one-chord-vamp rather than be able to tell you how many flats/sharps are in the key signature (though knowing that stuff helps too).

I stand by my simple philosophy - keys are either major or minor. Regardless of modes and all that stuff. For most musical scenarios I've ever encountered this has been the case.

If I was playing a D Lydian vamp I would notate the music in the key of D major.

This key has 2 #'s.

The frequent recurrence of G#'s - the #4 -  in the music would be an indication that this is a modal piece of music.

Is there really a need to indicate to the performer that a piece is in such-and-such a 'mode'? 

Isn't that a little bit like musical mollycoddling? 

It's like people want to feel safe - 'here's a box of notes, they'll all work over these chords...'

We're in C - if you can't hear that the II chord has an F# in it (Lydian jam anyone?) then you've got some more practice to do.

(EDIT - I pulled the key of C from thin air - not related to my previous paragraph talking about D Lydian)

viz

You get a vizdom for that post.

carlos

From what I read, I rate @MatthewShreddery's reply as the best. @koneguitarist also gets some kudos in a sort of idiot savant (no offence, bear with me) way - ultimately you want to know everything, forget everything, and then play by ear. But that takes a lot of learning, and a lot of forgetting to get there, the proverbial 10k hours of practice.

I view modes as always associated with chords. Pieces are not necessarily written in Dorian or Ionian, the big signposts of our music are major and minor keys, which imply only their basic triads. Everything else is colour, whereas coming from the chords in the piece or from our own sensibility. There's a universe of chord theory and substitutions out there which you can choose to use or not. For instance, let's take a dominant chord in a piece of music. Easiest would be to play a Mixolydian scale over it as it has all the notes (135b7) from a dominant chord. But that might not be the colour you want, so you can pick for example a wholetone scale to play over it which has #5 in it. The #5 is not part of the key but the scale does have the 1 and the flat 7 which are really the "essentials" of a dominant chord, so it works... with a different colour. I think it's fine to learn the shapes and memorise them: I've got CAGED, 3nps, maj/min pentas down. But after that rote learning, it's really important to learn the sounds. 

Take it away Miles (from 3:30 onwards)

carlos

And even better video. I really recommend watching this and incorporating it:

frankus

I think the idea of know everything, forget everything is specious.

By the time a kid gets to school he should know how to talk with people to get what he needs, know how to pick out a safe adult if he loses mum or dad, maybe know his address, maybe be able to get dressed, maybe take himself to the loo.

It's something similar for guitarists (ignoring the whole guitarist/musician shit-storm) if they can get up on stage, play in tune, know the tunes they'll play, keep time and manage their volume levels. Ideally they should be able to recall the amp settings in case another band change them, ideally recall the setlist, ideally not get pissed in the time between sound-check and their spot, ideally get on with the rest of the band.

When people are discussing the bullshit of modes, keys, diatonic notes, inversions -  that's the domain of improvisation, song-writing and waffling.

It sounds pretentious at a gig, anally retentive in a studio BUT fucking awesome on internet forums for guitarists (try it with musicians and you'll be out of your depth almost instantly).