Pickups and RWRP ~ ~ ~ how much difference does it make to your sound?

ChrisMusic

Ok so what are the pros and cons of using RWRP with pickups?

What do you lose in tone, if anything?

Humbuckers are wound with RWRP between their two coils anyway, so it is part of their sonic signature.

Does the distance between the coils affect the sound when you do that?

What else is there to take into account?

Are there other ways of achieving any of this?

Any experience or opinions on this welcome,

so it's over to you.

Andyjr1515

It doesn't really make any difference to the sound, Chris - it just allows the position 2 and 4 on a 5-way switch running all single coils (eg, original strat) to humbuck - so reduces the amount of mains buzz that we have all come to know and love on single coils.  

It is basically creating a virtual humbucker with either the bridge and middle, or the neck and middle single coil pickups.

As you say, it's superfluous with humbuckers - except that my custom Swift 3 has HSH and the humbuckers themselves can split coil:

I spent a lot of time working out the polarity and winding direction of the single coil options for the humbuckers and then chose an appropriately configured single coil for the middle position.

Don't think it made a blind bit of difference 

)

Andy

ICBM

It *shouldn't* make a difference - reversing the magnetic field and the coil should give exactly the same result from a physics point of  view - but it does!

I think there may be several reasons - although TheGuitarWeasel knows more about this than I do and may be along to correct me in a minute...

- The interaction between the two magnetic fields will be different, if the pickups are close together.

- The coil is usually not wound the other way, but reverse-connected. This will change the self-capacitance relative to ground slightly since the ground end is now the inner if it was the outer, and vice versa.

- (Controversial!) The hum from single coils is actually *part of the tone*. Removing it takes away some of the character of the sound.

I've tested this carefully with two instruments, and found a clear difference with one and not with the other, so it's probably quite a subtle or complex thing.

The one I found a difference with was a Fender Highway 1 Strat - these have the plastic-bobbin pickups so you can push the magnets out and reverse the polarity without having to remagnetise it. The tone with RWRP was definitely thinner - compared by recording. I didn't even take the pickup out of the pickguard to do the swap so there's no height-adjustment issue.

The one I found no difference with was a Rickenbacker 4003 bass - you can easily flip the magnet on the bridge pickup. No detectable effect on the tone, also compared with recording. The pickups are a lot further apart on a 4003 than a Strat, so this might indicate that the first point is important.

In both cases I was careful to orient the guitar in the minimum-hum position when recording so the hum wasn't actually acting as a giveaway.

ChrisMusic

Cheers @Andyjr1515, thanks for that, nice guitar BTW.

I presume you did get hum cancelling in the in-between switch positions as a reward for your efforts though?

Probably difficult to tell how much difference to your sound it makes unless you do an A-B test like ICBM talks about.

Fascinating stuff ICBM, it is good that you thought enough of this issue to do those experiments.

Recording is probably the only way to do that sort of test objectively, it also allows re-appraisal later if you want to, good call.

Always nice to have a bit of controversy too, I recon.

OilCityPickups

My own experience:
RWRP with single coils definitely makes the tone a touch thinner. This is barely noticeable on Strats ... but it's there. It's made up for a little with hotter pickups by more windings ... but I offer RWRP thesedays as standard with all but my lowest output 'Vintage' Strat units ... as with them you tend to want all the thickness you have anyway.
As ICBM says, coil proximity tends to mask those effects with humbuckers.
An interesting point is that with P90s that difference in tone is much more noticeable ... that's why I offer RWRP as an option with them, not as standard.
Also, if my lower output SC pickups are requested RWRP, personally, I always wind in a reverse direction rather than simply swapping the wires. This makes no real difference on higher output units to my ears ... but does on lower output (lower signal/noise ratio) units.

ICBM

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Also, if my lower output SC pickups are requested RWRP, personally, I always wind in a reverse direction rather than simply swapping the wires. This makes no real difference on higher output units to my ears ... but does on lower output (lower signal/noise ratio) units.

That's very interesting!

Personally I do like to think about this sort of thing and why it makes a difference, but for my own guitars I always go for RWRP anyway - I've played in places where a guitar without at least one hum-cancelling setting is unusable with much distortion, or without standing at an inconveniently exact - and usually odd-looking! - angle on the stage. That outweighs the minor tone difference, for me.

mart

I've been wondering about this, so it's good to hear ICBM and TGW's thoughts on it.

In a recent Guitarist, Tim Mills from Bareknuckle pickups was explaining that he doesn't like RWRP since he looked at how the strings were moving in the presence of the opposing magnetic fields. He said something about the strings moving in a "crazy" way as if they were being pulled in different directions. (Caveat: I'm quoting from memory, so may have got this slightly garbled).

Any comments on that? Can the magnetic fields of the two pickups interact that way?

OilCityPickups

Open quotes: 'Tim is a character' close quotes.

ICBM

I would think so. There's definitely quite a significant pull on the strings - that's what causes the 'wolf tone' problem on Strats, and why an Esquire doesn't sound the same as a Tele on the bridge pickup.

It might also explain why the difference was audible to me on a Strat but not on a bass - with much heavier strings that aren't affected as much - rather than the distance between the pickups.

ChrisMusic

Curiouser and curiouser.

I wonder why P90s behave so differently to other pickup species, that is obviously part of their charm.

But their susceptibility to RWRP tonal change is indeed curious.

Thanks for the reply Ash, that clarifies a lot for me on SCs & HBs. Ta.

TheGuitarWeasel said:  My own experience:

RWRP with single coils definitely makes the tone a touch thinner. This is barely noticeable on Strats ... but it's there. It's made up for a little with hotter pickups by more windings ... but I offer RWRP thesedays as standard with all but my lowest output 'Vintage' Strat units ... as with them you tend to want all the thickness you have anyway.
As ICBM says, coil proximity tends to mask those effects with humbuckers.
An interesting point is that with P90s that difference in tone is much more noticeable ... that's why I offer RWRP as an option with them, not as standard.
Also, if my lower output SC pickups are requested RWRP, personally, I always wind in a reverse direction rather than simply swapping the wires. This makes no real difference on higher output units to my ears ... but does on lower output (lower signal/noise ratio) units.

OilCityPickups

ICBM said:

I would think so. There's definitely quite a significant pull on the strings - that's what causes the 'wolf tone' problem on Strats, and why an Esquire doesn't sound the same as a Tele on the bridge pickup.

It might also explain why the difference was audible to me on a Strat but not on a bass - with much heavier strings that aren't affected as much - rather than the distance between the pickups.

I think that case is over stated ... RWRP is an evil to be sure ... but to some people a necessary one.
As to Why P90s are particularly susceptible to RWRP tone change ... welll if you use Tims idea it could be down to the hefty string pull of four chuffing great bar magnets. Or more likely (to my way of thinking) down to the particular set of frequencies we associate with P90-ness being filtered out. Ones that depend on the hum (ICBM's controversial idea ... and mine) for their very character. The 'big loop' design of the P90 is particularly good at picking up noise ... so if that noise is actually part of the 'sound' it's logical that if you get rid of the hum you will change the tone.
It's actually likely to be a combination of all these factors ... but sorting out which is tough.

ChrisMusic

mart said:   I've been wondering about this, so it's good to hear ICBM and TGW's thoughts on it.

In a recent Guitarist, Tim Mills from Bareknuckle pickups was explaining that he doesn't like RWRP since he looked at how the strings were moving in the presence of the opposing magnetic fields. He said something about the strings moving in a "crazy" way as if they were being pulled in different directions. (Caveat: I'm quoting from memory, so may have got this slightly garbled).

Any comments on that? Can the magnetic fields of the two pickups interact that way?

I totally agree @mart, I am fascinated by all this.  It tooks so much like a "dark art" from the outside perspective.  Magnetic fields and their interaction are pretty much outside the average guitarists normal thought process.

Good question about how the fields on two pickups interact and how that affects the tone.  I do wonder too.

I would make some sense to me that a strong magnetic pull could affect the string vibration enough to change the harmonic makeup of the string and hence of the guitar.

On a Strat the magnet is right under the string, unlike HBs & P90s where the field is transferred by a pole piece.

I don't know if that actually would be enough to hear, or is just a theoretical figment of my imagination.

"Wolf tone" is for real though.  Great phrase that.

"Strings moving in a "crazy" way", now that is starting to get slightly surreal.

But then a humbucker has both poles pulling on the string about an inch apart, and we are comfortable with them.

Interesting insights from ICBM too, good food for thought.

With string gauge another variable in the mix, sounds about right to me, this is a complex beast for what seems like simple technology.

TheGuitarWeasel said:    Open quotes: 'Tim is a character' close quotes.

>:)

ChrisMusic

So in reading what ICBM had to say above about the absolute need for hum cancellation in some venues, and what TheGuitarWeasel said about P90 tone changing with RWRP, could part of the solution for us P90 enthusiasts be to enable a dummy coil for those bad venuse, and keep it switched out for better tone the rest of the time?

Is that a realistic solution, or am I clutching at rainbows?

OilCityPickups

Noise gate and spark up another spliff ... this silence thing is over rated and life's too short

mart

ICBM;67220" said:

I would think so. There's definitely quite a significant pull on the strings - that's what causes the 'wolf tone' problem on Strats, and why an Esquire doesn't sound the same as a Tele on the bridge pickup.

...

I always meant to test the amount of string pull by comparing sustain on a guitar with the pickups removed to the sustain with the pickups there. 

My issue with Tim Mills's comment is that, whatever the polarity, the magnet is always pulling the string. So the only change I can see being between a more uniform pull along the length of the strings (at least the length near the pickups), and a slightly more variable pull, with weaker patches where the two magnetic fields cancel each other. I struggle to believe that this change would cause much difference in how the strings move. But if it did, I guess it would change the frequency response, with RWRP producing more treble.

But I really have no feel for the magnitudes of these effects, or whether they'd be at all discernible.

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Open quotes: 'Tim is a character' close quotes.

Lol!

ChrisMusic

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Noise gate and spark up another spliff ... this silence thing is over rated and life's too short

) >:) ) >:) ) >:) ) >:) :-\" :o3

ICBM

The problem with noise gates is that they don't kill the noise while you're actually playing, and in some paces it can be bad enough to make any remotely 'gainy' sound unusable. I'm not even very fussy about noise! I like a bit of hum, it adds to the rock'n'roll vibe (even if debatably to the actual tone ) - but sometimes it's just too much.

I RWRP'd the Rick bass after doing a gig where the bass amp was on the side of the stage right next to the main PA power amp racks, and the hum was so bad I couldn't use my fuzz pedal at all - even clean I had to stand at a slightly odd angle to keep it quiet enough. Most bass players wouldn't have noticed since the 4003 is almost the only modern bass with no hum cancellation as standard.

The problem with spliffs on stage is that the audience might not be quite hearing things the same way as you do…

imalone

mart said:

I always meant to test the amount of string pull by comparing sustain on a guitar with the pickups removed to the sustain with the pickups there. 

My issue with Tim Mills's comment is that, whatever the polarity, the magnet is always pulling the string. So the only change I can see being between a more uniform pull along the length of the strings (at least the length near the pickups), and a slightly more variable pull, with weaker patches where the two magnetic fields cancel each other. I struggle to believe that this change would cause much difference in how the strings move. But if it did, I guess it would change the frequency response, with RWRP producing more treble.

But I really have no feel for the magnitudes of these effects, or whether they'd be at all discernible.

My first issue with it is how he can see the strings moving crazily, since even low E is at 80Hz. You can only see the overall envelope. It would be a cool experiment for someone with the right high speed equipment to do.
Major pull is immediately over the magnet poles, the field disperses quickly as you move along the string off axis.
If there is an interaction between the two fields I'd have thought it was more likely to be in the actual string magnetisation: the string is magnetised while in the pickup's magnetic field. How exactly a long thin piece of metal is magnetised by a field applied perpendicular to it for a short length I'm not sure, but lines of flux tend to stay in magnetic materials, so adjacent pickups in opposite polarisation might cause the strings to couple the two (like a keeper bar on a horseshoe), whereas with the same polarisation they wouldn't.

ICBM

imalone said:

My first issue with it is how he can see the strings moving crazily, since even low E is at 80Hz.

With a stroboscope .

OilCityPickups

ICBM said:

imalone said:

My first issue with it is how he can see the strings moving crazily, since even low E is at 80Hz.

With a stroboscope .

Or a spliff
A big old carrot'll make the chuffing wallpaper move randomly.

mart

TheGuitarWeasel said:

ICBM said:

imalone said:

My first issue with it is how he can see the strings moving crazily, since even low E is at 80Hz.

With a stroboscope .

Or a spliff

Haha! You're on good form today!