G12-25 vs G12-65/75

Catthan

Hey guys, I'm currenly running through 2 greens but my Badger is a bit harsh on the highs when I push it at low power scaling levels.

According to Suhr, the power stage is more prone to clipping when you push from the preamp-guess that's the purpose- but

I played another Badger through a stock 1936 cab and it seemed a bit more open and more mellow on the high end.

Is it just my impression or these 2 higher wattage speakers have a sweeter top end.

Previously I had a green and a V30 which balanced nicely but didn't help much with the harshness.

Thanks,

T.

ICBM

Catthan said:

Hey guys, I'm currenly running through 2 greens but my Badger is a bit harsh on the highs when I push it at low power scaling levels.

I played another Badger through a stock 1936 cab and it seemed a bit more open and more mellow on the high end.

That's odd, since the G12T-75 is notoriously a bit buzzy at the top-end, as well as deeper at the bottom and hollower in the mids than the G12M-25, so 'mellow' is not usually how it's described!

The G12-65 is closer to the tone of the 25 but with a tighter sound overall and a darker top-end. I don't think it sounds as good as the 25 at low volume though, exactly because it's stiffer. But if you said you want the sound of a G12M with a less harsh top, that's what I would go for.

I'm not keen on the G12M/V30 combination, it seems to bring out the worst of both speakers to me, even though I know it's used by some high-end amp makers. It's also daft from a power handling point of view - lower-rated than the V30 alone - and means you can't push the V30 properly (which it likes) without overloading the 25 (which it doesn't). To me it sounds mismatched and you get the V30's harsh upper-mid spike combined with the G12M-25's farty low-end.

Catthan

Thanks @ICBM.

Interesting what you say about the green+V30; tbh I tried it at home volumes so I guess none was really pushed enough to reveal its true character. The harsh upper mid spike of the v30 was there though but at low volumes i just got some presence spread over a broader spectrum. At least that's how I would describe it. The 2 greens seem a bit more focused on the low-mids.

Not sure it was the G12T-75 I tried, thought it's what comes stock with the 1936 and that's why I mentioned it.

I'm more keen to try the G12M-65 tbh.

Thanks for your input.

Nerine

All my cabs are V30 loaded.
I can't say I've ever heard this harsh upper mid spike that everyone goes on about?!?

Cirrus

Me neither. Play them at typical rock band volume and they're awesome, you just get tight low end and a focused mid range. Maybe people judge them before they break in?

ICBM

Probably, and at low volume. While I don't believe in "needing to push a speaker" to get it to sound good, I do find the idea of putting a V30 in a low-powered amp a bit daft, as it's one of the few speakers that *is* quite 'stiff' at low volume. If you combine that with being fitted from new so it's never been driven hard at all, they can definitely sound a bit harsh.

The ones in my Trem-o-verbs don't sound like that at all, but the amps are capable of driving the speakers very hard and both have been heavily gigged (not so much by me unfortunately…). The funny thing is that I had a Gold in one of them for a while, and although I liked it at first it did have a very slightly harsh 'metallic' top-end compared to the one with two V30s! I didn't really notice until I had both amps and did a side-by-side test, but it's now back to its original speakers.

Cirrus

There's plenty of stuff happening in the top end of your typical mesa distortion, so I guess having a speaker that rolls off the treble above a certain point makes perfect sense with those amps.

Funny thing about the gold - when I got one that was essentially unused and put it in my vox cab along with a blue I was pretty much dismayed - it was SO bright I had to turn the hi cut knob way up to shave off terrible ice picks. I think if I'd had an alternative I'd have immediately given up on it and sold it on, but I didn't so it was used for a few practices and gigs. It started to mellow out so I stuck with it, and after two months, maybe 50 hours of loud playing time, it sounded way better.

I've got two of them now in that vox cab and they're definitely the best speakers I've used. They've got the "crushed glass" treble you expect from vox/ alnico, but there's no harshness at all and they've got really awesome "thump" to them and big low mids.

ICBM

Yes, I perhaps should have given it more high-volume time. It wasn't brand new when I got it and I had it in the amp for about a year but I didn't use it all that much, and only once at gig volume. The metallic top-end was only very slight, and in some ways I liked the chime, but comparing my old (with Gold) Trem-o-verb and my new one with two V30s, I prefered the new one. A quick check with a speaker extension cable to run each amp through the speakers of the other proved it was the Gold I didn't like as much. A friend wanted to buy it so that was that...

Cirrus

Since I've got a 2x12 cab with greenbacks and a Marshall mkII master lead combo with two g12 65s at my bands lockup, would it be of use to the op if I did a little comparison clip next time I'm there?

Catthan

@Cirrus, that would be absolutely brilliant! thanks man.

Cirrus

@Catthan :

G12 65

G12c Greenback

Gibson Explorer through low input of Marshall Master Lead Mk2 50 watt combo, distortion is a Rat pedal. Not a great comparison as the 65s are in the open backed combo cab so they've got less bass and a bit more vocal mids. The Greenbacks are G12 "c"s which are apparently slightly tweaked m25s for Marshall, I doubt there's much in it.

Catthan

I really appreciate this @Cirrus! The greens sound a tiny bit more focused, don't know if it's the closed cab; so any harshness is more directional. The g12-65s sound a bit mellower. Guess it's the lack of bass? They are more vocal indeed. I can take the back out of mine and record smth to compare and see what the cab does and maybe isolate it's effect to an extent.

Cirrus

Yeah, it just goes to show that even with a relatively close mic (it was a condensor about a foot away I guess) the cab really makes a difference!

I'd really like to put the 65s in the closed back cab to see how they compare then. The trouble is the Marshall isn't mine so if I end up liking them it might be a difficult talk to the owner...

Moltisanti

it also really depends on the head you're using too, my Splawn didn't like Creambacks at all (where my EVH loved them), and it sounds miles better through stock GT12 75s.

I've heard V30s sound amazing and very harsh depending on the head, cab, volume, age....etc etc i think when properly broken in with the right EQ they are great speakers. If you want to cut through a mix, use a JB into a cab with V30s and you'll pretty much always be heard

Catthan

I think the Creambacks G12m -65 are different from the the G12-65 which now come as "heritage" or the super 65s which are cheap and from what I read not very similar either. 

The cab I tried had the G12T-75 probably which I really liked.

WGS make a G12-65 repro which is not more expensive than a Chinese green; might worth giving those a try.

Dave_Mc

^ Yeah mine seem quite nice, but I haven't tried the Celestion version so I don't know how they compare. )