The Rugby Union Thread

lloyd

tbm said:

lloyd said:

This is a great piece on Sunday's game. I'd like a small section like this before a game highlighting scrums or breakdown or defencive systems. http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-defence-wales-six-nations-2016-2591653-Feb2016/

Yeah, that's Murray Kinsella. The best rugby Irish analyst by a mile. Long, well thought out, balanced articles that he backs up using gifs and youtube clips. It's required reading really. 

tbm said:

lloyd said:

This is a great piece on Sunday's game. I'd like a small section like this before a game highlighting scrums or breakdown or defencive systems. http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-defence-wales-six-nations-2016-2591653-Feb2016/

Yeah, that's Murray Kinsella. The best rugby Irish analyst by a mile. Long, well thought out, balanced articles that he backs up using gifs and youtube clips. It's required reading really. 

I don't think you can expect much with the medium of TV. These people have to comment on events that they've seen once and maybe haven't properly got their head around. Moore is a good example. He's an England fan, so I can't listen to him commentate when they're playing. But I think his podcast is fantastic. I generally agree with his analysis of games and he always has great guests. Ugo Monye would be one of the best ones. Always has good observations.

It wouldn't need to be as in depth as that-like I say just somebody spending 3-5 minutes before a game showing that somebody, somewhere has done any kind of analysis into one facet of the game...

I've seen it done on TV by Gwyn Jones-he did a fantastic piece before that QF (2011) between us and you....was 5 minutes on the respective defences-you choke tackling and us chop tackling with a few VT's of successful examples, failed examples and how to nullify them both. It was great.

Another excellent piece I saw on TV was Dean Richards before a Premiership game explaining attacking pod systems one team used 2 the other used single pods, he mainly used whiteboards with magnets to explain but there was some VT like a breath of fresh air. 

I'm sure something like that is very doable, before this weekends game between Wales and Scotland you could do a few minutes on Wales failure to get the ball out past Ireland's defence and show what Scotland should be trying to do-that is do what Ireland did in defence-slow the ball in rucks and fly up forcing our backs to make decisions (they can't under pressure) and force them to execute good passing (they can't under pressure). 5 minutes of chat and VT-done.

You could then show how Scotland's aggressive defence in the QF forced Australia to play the ball under pressure, causing a couple of intercepts and charged down kicks, which could/should have been enough to win them the game. Highlight the importance of releasing Hogg into space and sticking a few garryowen's down welsh throats and having him try and pick a few off.

That's off the top of my head in 2 minutes....and I know close to nothing about the game.

eSully

@tbm - I love that clip, when BOD says 'I could tell everyone was only on one persons side, and that included the English players' I just cracked up. Woody sniggering in background too.

@Lloyd - Yes, Maybe I'm a bit of a dinosaur with these things. I will say in all honesty I'd have no more of a problem with that 2nd tackle if it had been James on Earls. As your favorite commentator Jiffy might say 'They're not playing tiddlywinks out there' but I don't doubt there's a few refs out there that would call it your way too.

crunchman

The problem with the tip tackle is that you get some where someone with basically good intentions loses a bit of control, versus what happened to BOD on the Lions tour of New Zealand.

If you go back to the Warburton sending off in the 2011 WC, it might have been a correct decision technically but for me the red card was too harsh.  Maybe the default punishment needs to be a penalty only.  If there is obvious intent like the one on BOD then send someone off.  The only problem is that it then becomes very subjective as to whether there is intent or not.  It's a difficult area, but I'm not sure they have got it right yet. 

lloyd

The tip tackle area is contentious as the law starts off well, then becomes a bit vague.

The laws have changed since the tackle on BOD. The Warburton one was annoying as like you say, it was technically a red, but I've never seen anyone before or since get a red-the directive before the WC was to be harsh on them but everyone got yellows then bans, apart from Warburton. Then after the WC the penalising died down.

Same with neck rolls this WC-lots of bans and YC's in the tournament-I've not seen any of that post WC, it's all a shambles, like most of the refereeing in Rugby Union these days.

I think for tip tackles you have a sliding scale, anything where the man is dropped is a pen or YC anything driving the man into the ground is a red.

They've nicely cleaned up the laws around taking the man out in the air, while it might have gone a bit too far initially and a few possibly harsh reds got given, you get very few collisions that end up with people on the floor hurt-it's mainly a fair competition for the ball.

Same with taking men out in the line out-doesn't happen anymore because you get a red for it.

I agree that it's a contact sport and no they're not playing tiddlywinks but player safety has to be at the fore in situations like this-the macho bullshit needs to be cut out-they are big powerful guys, much more so than 10 years ago and high tackles, spears and taking men out in the air is dangerous, I don't want to end big fair hits but the tip tackles need to go.

One of my favourite ever tackles is Henson on (forgot his name, no gif this time either...) young OC for England, he spears him to the ground-great hit...but the laws these days would see him walking....

The main thing that needs to be reffed properly and taken out of the minds of commentators and fans and pundits is the 'intention' of the tackler...it's their responsibility to complete a tackle in a fair way, if there's a chance of losing control you have to put the man down-safely. End of story. 

eSully

lloyd said:

One of my favourite ever tackles is Henson on (forgot his name, no gif this time either...) young OC for England, he spears him to the ground-great hit...but the laws these days would see him walking....

Henson on Tait, I'd love to hear from a Joubert/Garces/Owens as to how they'd deal with that tackle today

lloyd

eSully said:

lloyd said:

One of my favourite ever tackles is Henson on (forgot his name, no gif this time either...) young OC for England, he spears him to the ground-great hit...but the laws these days would see him walking....

Henson on Tait, I'd love to hear from a Joubert/Garces/Owens as to how they'd deal with that tackle today

Tait, that's the one, cheers.

He drives him into the ground, it's a red card today, but by the laws of the day that was a great tackle.

30 years ago punching was an acceptable part of the game!

scrumhalf

The problem with the Beeb is that they never explain anything, never have done.

For all of his brilliance, Bill McClaren rarely explained why a penalty had been given. Admittedly, this was generally in the days when people watching on telly knew enough to understand why. After Sky started covering rugby we had a lot more relevant analysis, opening the game out to those who didnb't always know what was going on (or "referees", as they are known).

Cricket - same thing. I never at any time saw anything on the Beeb's test coverage that explained the LBW law. There's enough time between deliveries, even allowing for the slowing down of the game. All you had was sopmeone handing over to Tom Graveney who'd say something like "yes, that looks out".

lloyd

Unchanged team from Wales.

Can't help thinking it's a mistake putting Biggar in again...I's Scotland at home, who let's be honest are not a top test team at the moment. 

Any other coaching team I'd trust that he was fit to play but this lot have a tendency to put people in when carrying knocks/leaving them on too long etc.

snakemanStoo

Maybe Gatland is a big fan of the Biggerena?

lloyd

Biggar is one of the best 10's in the World right now. His kicking is needed as 1/2p is out and Priestland is flaky as fuck (good on Sunday mind) but I can't help thinking he's being pushed back in too quick. Hope I'm wrong.

eSully

I expect a much improved Wales this weekend but I wouldn't be too overconfident. I don't think that Scotland team is as rubbish as they were 3/4 years ago. Glasgow are strong and Edinburgh having a good Pro12 season. They've a great back 3. I think it'll be a very competitive game. I hope so anyway as a neutral. Wales to edge it but not by a cricket score.

lloyd

I don't see a cricket score but 2 clear scores isn't beyond us. Glasgow are strong but the difference with them and Scotland is that they can bring in top players where they are weak (Scotland's SA contingent don't count!)

I don't rate their forwards (carrying or ground work) and they have a terrible 10-a great backline suffers behind that.

I think it will be close for 50 mins with Wales in control with us pushing on in the final half hour.

eSully

FRANCE

15. Maxime Médard (Toulouse)

14. Teddy Thomas (Racing 92)

13. Maxime Mermoz (Toulon)

12. Jonathan Danty (Stade Français)

11. Virimi Vakatawa (FFR)

10. Jules Plisson (Stade Français)

9. Sébastien Bézy (Toulouse)

1. Jefferson Poirot (Bordeaux-Bègles)

2. Guilhem Guirado (Toulon) (capt)

3. Uini Atonio (La Rochelle)

4. Alexandre Flanquart (Stade Français)

5. Yoann Maestri (Toulouse)

6. Wenceslas Lauret (Racing 92)

7. Yacouba Camara (Toulouse)

8. Damien Chouly (Clermont Auvergne)

IRELAND

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)

14. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)

13. Jared Payne (Ulster)

12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)

11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)

10. Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)

9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)

1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)

2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) (capt)

3. Nathan White (Connacht)

4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)

5. Mike McCarthy (Lansdowne/Leinster)

6. CJ Stander (Munster)

7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)

8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) (vice-capt)

Replacements:

16. Richard Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)

17. James Cronin (Dolphin/Munster)

18. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)

19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)

20. Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)

21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)

22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)

23. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

lloyd

Ireland should put those away. 

Strong bench from France from what I've seen elsewhere.

koneguitarist

See New Zealand are up to their cheating tricks again, and getting off scotfree ! Used 8 men on the pitch against Australia in 7's and scored try with overlap. Win still stands no sanction against NZ. Yet Ospreys and England were fined and docked points I believe.

koneguitarist

Just looked at Welsh bench, looks much stronger with both Anscombe AND Priestland on there rather than Cuthbert. Extra kicker options.

Gassage

koneguitarist said:

Just looked at Welsh bench, looks much stronger with both Anscombe AND Priestland on there rather than Cuthbert. Extra kicker options.

Yes, having 2 players rather than just the one often gives you more options.

koneguitarist

As opposed to Cuthbert and Priestland you Wally!

koneguitarist

@gassage your thoughts on Earls Tackles? Both penalties or both Yellow cards?

Gassage

Laws have changed.

2011- red card
2016- penalty.