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The Rugby Union Thread
Base theme by DesignModo & ported to Powered by Vanilla by Chris Ireland, modified by the "theFB" team.
Comments
What a magnificent tanking of Saracens on their patch. Ten tries conceded in the league this season, today we stuck eight past them. We now have two Piatau brothers playing for uis, so my man of the match was their mum.
Couldn't work out whether to give you a lol or wow, needs both!
62 mins before France got in the Ireland 22 on Saturday. And we still lost. That's pretty damning.
Noise, randomness, ballistic uncertainty.
Manchester based original indie band Random White:
https://www.facebook.com/RandomWhite
https://twitter.com/randomwhite1
Manchester based original indie band Random White:
https://www.facebook.com/RandomWhite
https://twitter.com/randomwhite1
Manchester based original indie band Random White:
https://www.facebook.com/RandomWhite
https://twitter.com/randomwhite1
Re Schmidt and perceived conservatism, in the first weekend Ireland kicked less than another other team - in the worst conditions of the weekend - and made more passes and line breaks. We had Zebo and Earls in the backs, so there was creativity there and the front 5 - who save for Best were man for man weaker then Wales - produced the goods. We still only drew mind. The game plan was correct on Saturday, and it largely worked in the first half. If the D Kearney try had been awarded - which is should have - we were in a different game. Nobody should fear France. They squecked past a wasteful Ireland, and it wasn't until the French front row was replaced did they get a squeeze on our very average scrum.
I've no idea how Rob Kearney is starting for Ireland. He'll have the occasional stormer for you, but he offers zero in attack and no better man to find an opposition player to run into. He's dining out on a few outstanding seasons 4 years ago, but for all his defensive failings Zebo offers so much more at 15. I'd be for starting Payne there too BUT its been pointed out a lot, and I really am begining to see it, defensively Ireland are very good with Payne at 13.
Ross should be back for the England game and that'll improve our scrum no end. At this stage all we can be is spoilers for England - stranger things have happened - but I don't expect us to be. Depending on injuries and Heaslip keeping Billy Vunipola quiet it'll be tight enough I reckon, but England should win.
Sexton? Yeah, he's flogged and be targeted. Still the best option, and big games he's who you're going to start with. I'm a big Madigan fan, but outside of the France game at the RWC - where he was fantastic - he hasn't shown me enough at this level to be comfortable with him starting big games. The Paddy Jackson thing is odd. He's the form fly half in the country, but maybe because Madigan covers more positions Schmidt seems to prefer him. Also, Ruan Penaar tends to make his 10s look good.
I said at the start: win the home games and bring some young lads through and I'd be happy. Even with the draw with Wales I'd still be reasonably ok if we won our last two giving Ringrose and McCloskey a run out.
Noise, randomness, ballistic uncertainty.
Launchbury for Lawes
Itoje for Robshaw
Marler for MV.
They may also consider shoreing up the 13 berth to counter Henshaw, easily the best Irish player on view so far, and bring back Manu, despite JJ's hat-trick.
*An Official Foo-Approved guitarist since Sept 2023.
You know a lot more than me, so I won't disagree.
Having said that, would there be a possibility of Itoje playing instead of Lawes? Most people seem to think that second row is his best long term position. It probably makes sense to start him at 6 in the short term given that England have a lot more good second rows than blind sides, but thinking long term towards the next WC would you be better playing him in his best position? Either way he needs to start.
Given the way the scrum improved when Marler came on, I think they are definitely better off starting with Marler and using Mako Vunipola as an impact sub. Marler is probably fitter as well. Looking at the way the scrum has gone with a Cole, Hartley, Marler front row, you do have to think that a lot of the WC problems were down to Youngs. I think Jones was right to ditch him.
I would have thought that Manu would play 12 (if fit) and you would keep Joseph at 13. You then get the question of who plays 10? You have to choose between Farrell and Ford.
I wonder how much longer Brown will keep his place. He's already 30, and while he's still playing well, I'm not sure that he quite has the pace of two years ago. There are other options. Goode is the obvious one and played well when he came on, but Watson has been playing fullback at club level and may end up there long term.
Re Itoje, if you pick the best 5 back 5 fowards available, I'd say that you'd go Kruis, Launch, Maro, BV, The Hask©.
Agree re Marler v MV. I've seen smaller galleon sails than Mako's shorts.
Full back- you're right re Browny and I've almost written as much as that this week, but I am more convinced at this moment in time by adding a footballer (Goode) than a gas man (Watson).
Re the midfield- as good as JJ has been I still think there's something missing there and that's someone straightening and committing defenders.
*An Official Foo-Approved guitarist since Sept 2023.
For those, including Eddie Jones, expecting a Valentine’s Day Massacre in Rome this game was a little more like the champagne you wake up to the morning after the party- flat as flat.
Yes, Italian industry thwarted English ambition for 60 minutes and the player of the match was, by some huge distance, the peerless Azzurri centre Michele Campagnaro, who showed skill and ambition beyond the comprehension of most English backs and was at the epicentre of few things good that happened on the day for the home team.
However, a raft of early Italian injuries meant that any impact came in the first quarter rather than the last, as subs were frantically deployed hither and thither. And it was telling that when England could throw new blood and light legs into the mix in the second half, the Italian bench was by that time as bare as their talismanic skipper’s head.
In looking at this game one should bear in mind that this Italian side ran France right down to the wire only 6 days previously. The combination of weary legs, injuries and not having the ability to bring on impact subs was clear to see, and, as always appears to happen, England, buoyed by compelling displays from replacements Joe Marler, Maro Itoje, Jack Clifford, Jamie George and Alex Goode, stretched far ahead of Italy in the last quarter.
What will Eddie Jones have gleaned from this weekend?
He said, pre-match, that you need to find out if people can swim before you throw them in at the deep end and that rugby is a 23 man game but it’s good to have the right batting order.
Based upon Sunday, Maro Itoje will have jumped up the scorecard, close to an opening spot. Chris Robshaw may be relegated to the ‘bitsnpieces’ all-rounders role and Joe Marler, short of runs in the first matches, showed timing and solidity in both defence and attack to oust the powerplay style of Mako Vunipola, who ironically also performs better further down the order, a game ‘finisher’ as Wallaby coach Michael Cheika likes to describe such performers.
Although Owen Farrell is looking sharp at 12, the rest of the backline vacillate between excellence and mediocrity almost minute by minute. At times, there’s a lack of shape and a tendency to crab. Anthony Watson, who looked magnificent when running hard and straight, needs to come and find more work for himself with the same hunger Jack Nowell displays. Jonathan Joseph, a hat-trick hero, almost became a two-try villain, and his selfishness in driving to complete his three tries when Watson was screaming for the ball with no defender ahead of him, will not go un-noticed.
England, with the beef of Haskell and Billy Vunipola to the fore, did great work at the breakdown; Haskell, in particular, has often been criticized for punching well below his considerable bulk, but has reveled in his enforcement and disruption role on the openside flank, despite the feeling he’s doing little more than keeping the shirt warm for that rarest of beasts, a ‘traditional’ over the ball seven. Indeed, time and time again promising English moves fell apart as the supporting forwards failed to link, pass or offload and preferred to seek the sanctity of contact, so a link man in the back row cannot come quickly enough for England.
On the other end of the spectrum, Jacques Brunel will be entirely disappointed with his side’s inability to improve.
Blessed with some cornerstones of world class players that even England can’t come close to- Campagnaro and Sergio Parisse are beacons of brilliance with Carlo Canna and Eduardo Gori improving with every game- Italy have a palpable ability to go off the boil if their big names tire.
At times, one felt for the Italian midfield; time and time again the deft hands of the skipper and his world-class centre were denied by fumbling mitts and an inability to read a pass by their team-mates. In a ten minute spell in the second half, three such telling passes ended up on the floor as the lesser gifted Azzurri players failed to react to the vision and skill of their senior players.
Both the Italian and English coaching positions are poisoned chalices, but each with a distinctly different venom. For Italy, the rumoured arrival of Harlequins’ Director of Rugby Conor O’Shea can’t come soon enough, as a new voice is needed in their multi-lingual dressing room; one that instills teamship and excellence throughout. In short, Brunel’s voice is tired and jaded and the players need something fresh.
For England and Eddie Jones, well the diminutive Australian loves his cricketing analogies and right now, he’s averaging somewhere in the late 30’s or early 40’s; creditable enough but needs more big scores to become a Test certainty.
Ireland await England and travel to Twickenham in two weeks’ time, a fortress no longer and a chariot in desperate need of a 12,000 mile service. What’s certain is there will be a huge advance in physical challenge from the men in green and that’s the one place where England have bossed their two previous opponents.
Jones will be mindful of the excellence of the Irish lineout and breakdown skills, and also of the huge threat of Robbie Henshaw in the 13 channel.
To this end, Marler, Launchbury and Itoje look certain to start in a game that’s a step up for England. Ireland, disappointing so far, will look to change things around and for the coaching purist, the battle of detail between Joe Schmidt and Eddie Jones is one to savour.
It’s a tough one to call, but England will be straining at the leash to banish the memories of the Rugby World Cup and we take England to win by nine.
*An Official Foo-Approved guitarist since Sept 2023.
Manchester based original indie band Random White:
https://www.facebook.com/RandomWhite
https://twitter.com/randomwhite1
We need everyone to be strong-France have been shit for years, I used to dread playing them but now? Not really, we've a great record recently. England the same to a lesser extent. The championship has been pretty poor fayre for a while-love the competition but it's low on quality. Scotland and Italy have basically been wins where you want to pile points on them in case it comes to points difference. If everyone is firing then it makes us all better.
Manchester based original indie band Random White:
https://www.facebook.com/RandomWhite
https://twitter.com/randomwhite1
I didn't realise this thread existed!
I also find it fascinating that just like guitar gear how varied one persons perception of something can vary so much to anothers.
I thought Englands first half performance was poor, sloppy in the set pieces and completely uninterested at the breakdown. For all the hard work that Robshaw puts in he does seem to miss a nasty streak that is needed in that position and I was surprised to see Haskell come off instead of him. I have a been a Robshaw fan for his commitment and pride in wearing the shirt, however if we dont start competing more at the breakdown we will not beat the big teams. We have the most impressive back line I have seen from England in recent memory but if we can't get them quick ball they are wasted. Itoje on the other hand had one of the most impressive first 30 minutes of Internationl rugby I've seen. Ok, so he made a few poor decisions that gave away a penalty or two that would need to taken out of his game, but his desire to get involved every where on the pitch made a huge impact. He was also hugely effecient at teh breakdown and at times looked impossible to move once he'd bridge over the ball.
As far as the back line, the issue for me is Farrell not Joseph. Joseph offers something that no other team in the 6 Nations has at centre, someone who can beat a man off of a standing start. His electric side step and surprising strength make him a difference maker, not to mention he tackles as well as anyone in the side so his defensive quality isn't a liability like say someone like Chris Ashton was a few years back (Jospeh and Burrell took care of Roberts and North in the centre very effectively last year so you can't use size as an argument against him either). Farrell for me is the weak link, yes he kicks well and yes there is nothing wrong with his tackling most of the time, however his ill discipline and stupidity at important moments is far too costly. On top of that he doesnt add much to the attack in his current centre position. I will conceeded that he should probably be playing where Ford is at the moment and his pass for the first try was top drawer. The bigger question is without Manu, who do we have to play that Jamie Roberts/Basteradu role of smashing the gain line? What happend to Luther Burrel? He suffered because of the stupidity of the RFU and the Sam Burgess experiment, and yet has completely gone off the international radar after 2 very good seasons in the 6 Nations. If Brown is no longer Englands starting 15, which I still very much think he is, then I would like to see Watson there as he needs the ball more. Ok, so he should probably go looking for it more on the wing, but if he ain't getting it there we need to be putting it in his hands more and kick returns seem like a natural solution (that and he's good under the high ball).
I agree completely that Marler should start and Mako come on as an impact player, it just works better. Lawes was Englands stand out player last year and for me has to start for his line out ability as well as his speed in defence. However Itoje has to start, Robshaw probably makes way, if Manu's fit (which doesnt look likely) then he steps in and Farrell moves across replacing Ford.
As always YMMV :-)
Feedback can be found here http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/908933#Comment_908933
Noise, randomness, ballistic uncertainty.
There are too many concussions and, it seems, too many injuries that require a good few months from which to recover.