The Rugby Union Thread

lloyd

Fair enough on Banahan/Shane. Re Shane though, he's a great example of going away and working hard and coming back fit and strong enough for international rugby-he did that 10? Years ago and is still 1stone heavier than Morgan is now. I appreciate he's a dangerous runner but he's not there yet with the rest of his game and like it or not you need some power and strength to play rugby, regardless of your pace-again Shane Williams is proof of the need to have that bulk rather than proof that small guys can do it too. That video shows Morgan do some good things against Connacht during the international break 2 years ago so I'm not going to get too excited about it. Like I say he's a dangerous runner, but I think his all round game isn't good enough and with the way he played he would isolate himself and give penalties away-as he did in the WC as he's greedy and fails to pass to the man in space-as he did in the WC. He may well be getting coached better this year, but the standard of player he's been playing against has been shit, and he's played at outside half, so for me not great prep for international wing play. North, Williams, James and Amos (injured) are ahead of him in my team. Cuthbert needs a break but get him back to some kind of form and he's ahead too. Add in the fact you can re-jig halfpenny, Williams and Priestland in the back 3 and I'm finding it hard to find a spot for him because of everything I've written above. I'd probably put Scott Williams ahead of him too. I would love to see him back at the Blues, playing wing, putting a stone on and improving his positioning, rucking and tackling as if he did I think that he could be a useful player for us. Do I want him touring New Zealand in the summer? No chance. (I'm not enamoured with any of them going there....) Do I think he'll ever be a first choice Wales player? No, his skill set isn't good enough to make up for what God left out IMO, could well have been hailed as better than Barry John had he played 40 years ago.

koneguitarist

Forgetting Morgan for the moment, do you not see an issue with some of the Welsh players being being too big to be able to do their job. 

North, to me gave away that try V SA due to his lack of tackling ability which lost us the game. Yes Sure it was Liam Williams who did a shoulder charge and knocked player into touch giving away penalty try, but it was North in a 1 on 1 who missed the tackle due to poor technique. A smaller player has to go low and get it right or is munched. 

So I see your point ref his size, but I think he can overcome some of his deficiencies in the same way that Shane Williams, Jason Robinson and Christoph Dominici did. 

My point being Cuthbert and North who are too monsters of the international game, are very poor in defence, size does not help you if you cannot tackle in first place. 

As for running away from support, something Shane Williams did all the time as his own team mates didn't have a clue what he was going to do so often he was out on his own. He didn't score a try every break that he made. 

It will be interesting to see how he gets on.

lloyd

I think North has deficiencies in defence yes but I'm not sure that's down to his size. He's one of our few players that every coach in the world would find a place for on the team sheet, so I think he stays. I don't think he'll ever be a great tackler. Cuthbert is not a rugby player really, he's just a physical specimen with pace-he started playing rugby late-19 I think and doesn't have the feel for the game. Couple that with poor form and confidence issues and he is the player we see today. The problem defending at wing is if you miss they often score, it's highlighted, like a goalie in footballs mistakes are. Defence isn't all about tackling either, especially on the wing you need to be able to hit rucks, support other tacklers, guide players to the line. Another aspect of wing play is that you are off alone with the ball defending a kick with players on you, you need to be able to take a tackle and have the strength to keep hold of it until back up arrives-MM gets isolated and gives pens away a lot, also he would be that back up and he doesn't have the rucking power to help. All in all his weaknesses aren't made up for by the fact he's gonna do a couple nice breaks in a game, he costs too much. All these guys you compare him with are bigger by at least a stone or played 10+ years ago too (and the one of best players of their generation, MM has just done a season in tier 2) He needs to put another stone on, I'm not sure he has the frame for it.

Rocker

We had a General Election on Friday. The count was on Saturday and into Sunday (Monday too due to recounts). PR is vastly more interesting than FPTP. Watching the count is more interesting than watching Rugby. So I saw no matches on Saturday. Everton were not playing either so Saturday was a sport free day. Apart from the election results that is. And I did not feel the slightest interest in switching channels to see what was happening in Twickers. I have lost interest in the game of Rugby. And Gaelic football. Power has replaced subtlety and inspiration in those games. Sad to see how easily a game dies on its feet. As Rugby has.

lloyd

Rocker said:

We had a General Election on Friday. The count was on Saturday and into Sunday (Monday too due to recounts). PR is vastly more interesting than FPTP. Watching the count is more interesting than watching Rugby. So I saw no matches on Saturday. Everton were not playing either so Saturday was a sport free day. Apart from the election results that is. And I did not feel the slightest interest in switching channels to see what was happening in Twickers. I have lost interest in the game of Rugby. And Gaelic football. Power has replaced subtlety and inspiration in those games. Sad to see how easily a game dies on its feet. As Rugby has.

From what you've posted before you only have a passing interest in rugby yeah? It's a shame that you've lost interest, I'm sure you're not the only one, the standard has been pretty poor this 6N, as bad as I can remember if I'm honest.

lloyd

Brown avoids further action. Citing tombola strikes again.

koneguitarist

lloyd said:

Brown avoids further action. Citing tombola strikes again.

How the fuck does he get away with it?

lloyd

koneguitarist said:

lloyd said:

Brown avoids further action. Citing tombola strikes again.

How the fuck does he get away with it?

I'm not surprised by anything the commission does these days. I can understand why he might avoid anything as it's probably a yellow for me but there we go, who knows?
I'm not sure how it wasn't seen as reckless feet as he has hit his face 3/4 times and he's needed stitches. I said before not intentional but the message goes out now that regardless of where people faces are, if they're holding on/offside etc you can kick at the ball?
The Irish guy is holding on yes, but Brown enters the ruck unbound. The whole ruck area is fucked isn't it?

koneguitarist

Agree, I can see someone trying to get a boot in to dislodge the ball early on, but when Brown keeps swinging back and fore, someone should have nailed him by clearing him out properly. To me it was very reckless and dangerous. I don't think anyone would have complained at a minimum of a yellow.

lloyd

Yellows aren't citieable I think? So it's fair enough, I'm not sure how no one picked it up during the match. Care took a yellow in the next ruck but that shouldn't change anything.

Rocker

Yeah @lloyd I have minimal interest in Rugby. Especially so since the game turned pro. But I do like sport. I even watch the Super Bowl and the Olympics. Weird when politics is more interesting than Ireland playing in the 6N.......

tbm

I am surprised he hasn't been cited.

hywelg

lloyd said:

The whole ruck area is fucked isn't it?

Yes and I'm afraid its responsible for the wholely defensive matches we keep seeing. The ruck laws have to be changed to make turnovers easier. Each team will therefore have to commit more players, earlier, or lose the ball, which in turn will leave fewer player out wide.

And I think driving over the top to take out the man on his feet going for the ball has to be prevented. Only allow the attacking team to go in to support the tackled player and never to be allowed to go in front of the tackled player. Its too easy for teams to ruck the ball with very few men committed, so of course the defending team dont commit either for risk of not having enough cover.

lloyd

I think coaches and players have to take a large portion of the blame for the ruck area, there is institutionalised cheating by EVERY team on the planet. The fact that refs ignore some laws doesn't help obviously. @hywelg what changes would you make? I think one thing I'd like to see is the supporting your own weight be enforced as well as driving in on your feet with head above hip height. Not sure rucking works if you can't go beyond the tackled player? Level with feet perhaps?

crunchman

When the ELVs were discussed a few years ago, there was an idea of allowing hands in the ruck.  That would stop the kind of incident with Brown on Saturday but I'm not sure what other repercussions would come of the change.

lloyd

crunchman said:

When the ELVs were discussed a few years ago, there was an idea of allowing hands in the ruck.  That would stop the kind of incident with Brown on Saturday but I'm not sure what other repercussions would come of the change.

I think that would see virtually every ruck failing to complete.

hywelg

lloyd said:

I think coaches and players have to take a large portion of the blame for the ruck area, there is institutionalised cheating by EVERY team on the planet. The fact that refs ignore some laws doesn't help obviously. @hywelg what changes would you make? I think one thing I'd like to see is the supporting your own weight be enforced as well as driving in on your feet with head above hip height. Not sure rucking works if you can't go beyond the tackled player? Level with feet perhaps?

Not entirely sure what would work to achieve my desired result, i.e. easier turnovers so more players from each team have to compete. Certainly driving in over the top of the tackled player and going beyond the tackled players torso should be prevented. Supporting attacking players to remain in physical contact with the tackled player? Defending player(s) to be allowed one knee on the ground provided he is still supporting his own weight? (makes it more difficult to be showed off as he's lower) Refs allowing slightly longer before calling 'tackle' (it seemed last weekend that the ref was calling tackle even before the player with the ball had gone to ground, on occasion) .

Something has to be done, I am tired of watching Rugby League with 2 extra players. I'm getting to the point of not wanting to watch, hell when Wales were an attacking side I'd watch because we were an entertaining side even though we lost too often. Now Even though we're winning more games I dont care........ If we're going the League route we will have to reduce the numbers. And the comments earlier about the subs has some merit. Fewer, so if the heavy players get worn out we will get more open play in the last 20.

What about defending teams having to be 2m behind the rear feet of the ruck. The rush defences are killing the possibility of running attacks with loop passes, dummy runs etc.

Gassage

Sorry to interupt the Taffy love in...

Here's me piece on Eng Ire for www.rugbyunplugged.com

Rome wasn’t built in a day and nor is an elite rugby side.

But, just like the coliseum, a team needs a solid foundation and a workable blueprint in order to succeed.

Eddie Jones is about winning. Unlike his predecessor, he eschews press platitudes like nature abhors a vacuum, yet he maintains a razor sharp respect and pinpoint focus that is the envy of many.

Why? Because Eddie does his joking off the field and his winning on the pitch and expects precisely the same of his team, and that’s exactly what his young and exciting charges are doing.

Ireland are in a state of flux. Many point out that the icons of the Emerald Isle that have hung their boots up, called it a day or moved to new pastures (delete cliché as applicable). The truth of the matter is it’s easy to let go of those players provided the replacements are fit and available, and in fairness, Saturday’s result may have gone the other way had the beef of world class players such as Sean O’Brien, Peter O’Mahoney and Cian Healy been fully fit.

Nevertheless, England are showing new ambition. Gone are the stodgy slow drives around the fringes. Removed are the dithering pre-planned moves that have blighted English rugby since 2004. Now we see players attacking with dancing, quick feet, accurate hands and hitting contact with depth and pace. Bolt on the power shown in contact, the speed of the push defence and the accuracy of the set piece and contact area and you’ll see that Chef Eddie is preparing a dish of mouthwatering proportions.

In just two or three matches, George Kruis and Maro Itoje have looked like one of the finest engine room combinations of recent times (and bear in mind Joe Launchbury is currently injured). Jonathan Joseph and Owen Farrell are creating havoc with their variety of pace, power and precision in the midfield, and Elliot Daly, Henry Slade and Manu Tuilagi are all eager and ready to replace them if they fail. The back row has statistically outperformed the current Welsh British Lions trio this season, and England have Nathan Hughes, Matt Kvesic, Jack Clifford and forgotten man Tom Wood yet to come. The future is rosey, in every aspect.

In a perfect rugby world, power bosses the gainline and defence; precision wins and uses the ball, and pace finishes the party off and England are showing all three qualities are not only evident but close on abundant in their game.

There’s still a few questions marks though. Loosehead, despite Joe Marler’s fine game, remains an issue. At half back, both Care and Ben Youngs offer different skill sets but both have their place. George Ford too isn’t a nailed on cert as his old friend Owen Farrell will pressure both the 10 and 12 shirts, and with the form of Daly and Slade around, Jones may consider that Farrell might be shunted back to 10 to allow one of the Exeter starlets to shine outside.

Whilst Anthony Watson must play, the debate is wing or full back? Mike Brown’s ongoing head issues (whether they be concussion or his propensity to lose his head in battle) might mean the Bath flyer takes up his club position to allow the searing pace of Johnny May back onto the wing after injury.

On the other side, Jack Nowell is impressive in every aspect of his game bar one; outright pace. Sadly that quality is essential for an international winger and there remains questions about the Cornishman’s speed, if not his commitment, skill level and sheer desire to contribute, which are outstanding.

So, at the half way stage, Eddie Jones gets big ticks in virtually every box; a solid B grade at least.

But wait a moment; Italy, Scotland and a depleted Ireland are nothing but par for the course. Letters home are not yet required. England haven’t been tested yet, and under any coach in the last 40 years they should have won those matches. The real test will be Warren Gatland’s Wales; a team bristling with self belief, experience and some massive characters.

The Welsh haven’t stopped celebrating since their win at Twickenham 3 months ago, a win that is rumoured to have given Alun-Wyn Jones the freedom of Wales and has inspired Max Boyce to pen a triple album. They will arrive at HQ with a renewed hatred, intent and desire to bury their oldest of enemies deep into Twickenham’s hybrid turf and nothing and no-one will prevent them from doing their damndest to achieve that.

But, this is exactly what Eddie’s England needs. A test, a calibration of where they are and how good they can be.

Let’s look forward to the deepest and finest of rugby rivalries, England v Wales (with the backdrop of the coaches Australia v NZ affair) as this one promises to be an absolute cracker and will define so much for both teams.

lloyd

Some good ideas there, I'd like to see a zero tolerance policy on hands in the ruck rather than the "hands off" sure,y if hands are on it he's slowed the ball down and done what he wanted? One thing is worth noting is that for all the negative play on show, Super Rugby this opening weekend was full of tries and attacking rugby.....

koneguitarist

@gassage a little over the top, I don't feel Wales will be much more of a test than Ireland. Just hope it's a decent game, for a change.