Randy Vincent - Jazz Guitar Soloing : A Cellular Approach and Line Games books

bingefeller

I ordered both of these tonight, although the Cellular Approach book will take a bit longer to come.  Just wondering if anyone here has them and what you think of them?

Cellular Approach.

Line Games.

Megii

Afraid not, but will be interested to know what you think of these when they arrive @bingefeller.

bingefeller

Megii said:

Afraid not, but will be interested to know what you think of these when they arrive @bingefeller.

Will let you know. Line Games should be here Friday.  Cellular Approach wont be here until mid October.

bingefeller

I got the Line Games book today.

It has loads of examples from famous jazz musicians (Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Charlie Parker) of how they employ various scales and lines in their playing.  

The book begins with a chapter on hexatonic scales and gives a definition of them in the modern sense and in a more traditional sense.  It shows how to apply the scale over ii-V-I and other progressions.  

It also covers some bebop scales, triad pairs, chromatics and an introduction to the cellular approach.  Most of the book is about hexatonics.

It has no tab so is good practice for reading standard notation also.

Megii

Sounds not bad - it can't be bad to be learning lines from the greats, and a bit of background analysis on top of that is always useful. Must say I am a bit wary these days of books that require you to buy into a certain pet approach of the author, so I'm not really sure about his "cellular approach" - I guess I've been playing long enough now to already have my own approach well established, so really any book or whatever I get has to fit with what I already do. That said, I am now very intrigued to know what the cellular approach book is like when that arrives.

I'm happy reading dots myself, and not a huge fan of tab, so that aspect isn't an issue for me.

bingefeller

Megii said:

Sounds not bad - it can't be bad to be learning lines from the greats, and a bit of background analysis on top of that is always useful. Must say I am a bit wary these days of books that require you to buy into a certain pet approach of the author, so I'm not really sure about his "cellular approach" - I guess I've been playing long enough now to already have my own approach well established, so really any book or whatever I get has to fit with what I already do. That said, I am now very intrigued to know what the cellular approach book is like when that arrives.

I'm happy reading dots myself, and not a huge fan of tab, so that aspect isn't an issue for me.

Unfortunately my reading of standard notation isn't so good.  I can read rhythms fine, it's just the names of the notes above and below the staff I have difficulty with.  I am getting there with practice.  

Megii

My reading ability really goes back to my being forced by parents to take piano/violin/music theory lessons when young (35-40 years ago). I was rubbish at piano/violin (couldn't be arsed to practice!) although I did like the music theory stuff. I can stumble around on a keyboard/piano now, and learn to play not too hard pieces, but have totally lost any violin-playing skill I once had (not a great loss to the world though). But one good thing that came out of it all is I could already read music when I started the guitar, and just had to transfer that over - it took a while, but I'm sure I had an advantage all the same. As you say, it is largely a matter of practice, and using the skill on a regular basis helps to keep things ticking over.

bingefeller

Megii said:

My reading ability really goes back to my being forced by parents to take piano/violin/music theory lessons when young (35-40 years ago). I was rubbish at piano/violin (couldn't be arsed to practice!) although I did like the music theory stuff. I can stumble around on a keyboard/piano now, and learn to play not too hard pieces, but have totally lost any violin-playing skill I once had (not a great loss to the world though). But one good thing that came out of it all is I could already read music when I started the guitar, and just had to transfer that over - it took a while, but I'm sure I had an advantage all the same. As you say, it is largely a matter of practice, and using the skill on a regular basis helps to keep things ticking over.

Single notes aren't too bad for me.  Chords are pretty hard and it would take me a wee bit longer to figure them out if there are no chord names.  If the chord name is there I just look at the bottom and top notes and can figure out the rest.

bingefeller

The thing about this book is that it gives examples of Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery's playing and analyses them as using a hexatonic scale.  This is most likely true but I find it highly unlikely that either player knew they were using this scale. 

Megii

Chords can be tricky I agree. If honest I have to admit a lot of my reading is working from lead sheets with bands, so it's usually a single line plus chord symbols. I have got better at being able to fill in suitable chords under the melody notes. But wouldn't want to make out I'm some incredible reader, and can always improve of course. I do find it more natural than tab though.

bingefeller

@Megii The Cellular Approach book should be here tomorrow.  I has been sent out sooner than expected.

Line Games is a good book, but it sort of overcomplicates some lines for me.  Randy Vincent analyses a lot of lines as being in the Hexatonic scale.  In Line Games the hexatonic he's talking about is essentially the major scale without the 4th.  He also talks about the hexatonic melodic minor which, again, is melodic minor without the 4th.  It's the way that the notes are arranged in this scale is what makes them special.  You have six notes and he is suggesting that these six notes are broken in to three two note cells.  In coming up with lines the "rule" is that you have to play one note in a cell and then you have to play the other one before moving on to another combination of notes in a different cell within the hexatonic scale.  

again I find it strange that Randy uses this hexatonic explanation when describing licks from Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery.  Randy even says himself that he doubts Joe Pass would have known he used the hexatonic scale and neither would Wes.  

The book does have a lot of good lines in it and I find myself learning them and really just using them in my own playing without learning too much about why they work or the theory behind them.  

I think the Cellular book will be a lot better.  It focuses on more modern players, such as Michael Brecker and Pat Metheny.  It seems that it will be more arpeggio based and will perhaps focus on substitutions.  

Megii

bingefeller said:

@Megii The Cellular Approach book should be here tomorrow.  I has been sent out sooner than expected.

Line Games is a good book, but it sort of overcomplicates some lines for me.  Randy Vincent analyses a lot of lines as being in the Hexatonic scale.  In Line Games the hexatonic he's talking about is essentially the major scale without the 4th.  He also talks about the hexatonic melodic minor which, again, is melodic minor without the 4th.  It's the way that the notes are arranged in this scale is what makes them special.  You have six notes and he is suggesting that these six notes are broken in to three two note cells.  In coming up with lines the "rule" is that you have to play one note in a cell and then you have to play the other one before moving on to another combination of notes in a different cell within the hexatonic scale.  

again I find it strange that Randy uses this hexatonic explanation when describing licks from Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery.  Randy even says himself that he doubts Joe Pass would have known he used the hexatonic scale and neither would Wes.  

The book does have a lot of good lines in it and I find myself learning them and really just using them in my own playing without learning too much about why they work or the theory behind them.  

I think the Cellular book will be a lot better.  It focuses on more modern players, such as Michael Brecker and Pat Metheny.  It seems that it will be more arpeggio based and will perhaps focus on substitutions.  

Cheers - it does sound interesting, although perhaps a bit contrived maybe? Anyway, I think like you I would probably just be taking lines I like and using them without worrying too much about the theory. I await with interest re the cellular approach book.

bingefeller

Megii said:

bingefeller said:

@Megii The Cellular Approach book should be here tomorrow.  I has been sent out sooner than expected.

Line Games is a good book, but it sort of overcomplicates some lines for me.  Randy Vincent analyses a lot of lines as being in the Hexatonic scale.  In Line Games the hexatonic he's talking about is essentially the major scale without the 4th.  He also talks about the hexatonic melodic minor which, again, is melodic minor without the 4th.  It's the way that the notes are arranged in this scale is what makes them special.  You have six notes and he is suggesting that these six notes are broken in to three two note cells.  In coming up with lines the "rule" is that you have to play one note in a cell and then you have to play the other one before moving on to another combination of notes in a different cell within the hexatonic scale.  

again I find it strange that Randy uses this hexatonic explanation when describing licks from Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery.  Randy even says himself that he doubts Joe Pass would have known he used the hexatonic scale and neither would Wes.  

The book does have a lot of good lines in it and I find myself learning them and really just using them in my own playing without learning too much about why they work or the theory behind them.  

I think the Cellular book will be a lot better.  It focuses on more modern players, such as Michael Brecker and Pat Metheny.  It seems that it will be more arpeggio based and will perhaps focus on substitutions.  

Cheers - it does sound interesting, although perhaps a bit contrived maybe? Anyway, I think like you I would probably just be taking lines I like and using them without worrying too much about the theory. I await with interest re the cellular approach book.

IMO it's contrived.  Having said that, Randy Vincent is a very well known guitarist and educator who has a lot more experience than me so...

bingefeller

The Cellular Approach book came today and I am enjoying it more than the Line Games book.  

The cells in this book are what Hal Galper calls a 4 note group of which at least three of the notes are chord tones.  He mentions Jerry Bergonzi has a similar approach.  

Randy shows a lot of exercises with cells over chords with different combinations of notes such as 1 - 2 - 3 - 5 to 3 - 1- b7 - 5 of the next chord and so on.   To get an idea of what some of these cells sound like:

He is using a lot of 1 - 2 - 3 - 5 over Coltrane changes.  These changes are covered in the book.  

Substitution using melodic cells is also mention.  

I would definitely recommend this book over Line Games.  Don't get me wrong, Line Games is good but, as I said, I think it's contrived and over complicated.  This book is simpler (for me) and I think I can get more out of it and be able to apply the lines to my own playing quicker than I would be able to those form Line Games.  I like to understand what I'm playing before I start using it and Cellular Approach is very easy to understand.