Beyond the Chord Shapes

GuyBoden

Shapes are great for instant playing................

But, in my experience, especially for creating more imaginative sounds, I've found that it's more beneficial to know the notes that you'll need and then experiment by playing these notes on the many fretboard locations that they can be found. This approach can be extremely beneficial when creating original material.

frankus

I don't know notes too good, I don't mind saying I'd like to improve that ... BUT

I've read and practiced Ted Green's Modern Chord Progressions and Chord Chemistry (still working through) and these work very similar to kata in martial arts. Practice practice practice and they just fall into place. The connection is between my ears and my hands my "head" is out of the way (for the pedants what I'm saying is my frontal lobes are not involved it's all my hypothallumus)

That is to say, I'm playing Danny Boy and I know I go from C7->F | | FM , I can hear the lead line and my ear just picks one of the fragments of progressions that fits in and my fingers fall to it. This frequently honours the lead line or takes few liberties and sounds great.

I find the problem with striving to create original material is it can sound forced, an English analogue may be George Bush's essay at Andover:

Soon after arriving, he was asked to write an essay on a soul-stirring experience in his life to date and he chose the death of his sister. His mother had drilled it into him that it was wrong when writing to repeat words already used. Having employed "tears" once in the essay, he sought a substitute from a thesaurus she had given him and wrote "the lacerates ran down my cheeks". The essay received a fail grade, accompanied by derogatory comments such as "disgraceful".  

I think it can become a compulsion and they're not fun to listen to.

Originality in Jazz is a by-product (to my mind). Originating from necessity to play new tunes and making mistakes due to lack of familiarity or practice time - it's more about pulling it off and having a bit of verve than being cerebral - I kinda appreciate Jobim's rejection of the intellectualising of music.

To that end spontaneity comes from familiarity and that comes from musical context (repertoire).  I don't believe anyone can extemporise good improv using fretboard knowledge - playing isn't the time to be trying stuff out, Dario Cortese put it to us (at IGF Jazz class) that improvisation is 80% rehearsed. Miles Davis had a knack of pulling everyone elses improv into his own - but that's through listening to them and imitating very quickly... Coltrane famously spent 3 months cribbing for Giant Steps (if you listen to the alternate takes you hear the same licks in different orders).. on the day Coltrane throws the music under the bands noses 30 minutes before recording... if you listen to Tommy Flannegan's piano solo it is frickin' awesome but he's desperately following the chords and holding on for dear life - which gives it great value.

I can't see the problem with chord shapes as a modality of playing. It's not always going to be appropriate, but I'd like to understand your reservations or perceived limitations.

I am an awful student, I learn slowly because I can't move on without reasonable justification

bingefeller

frankus said:

Originality in Jazz is a by-product (to my mind). Originating from necessity to play new tunes and making mistakes due to lack of familiarity or practice time - it's more about pulling it off and having a bit of verve than being cerebral - I kinda appreciate Jobim's rejection of the intellectualising of music.

Care to expand upon this?

GuyBoden

frankus said:

I can't see the problem with chord shapes as a modality of playing. It's not always going to be appropriate, but I'd like to understand your reservations or perceived limitations.

As I stated, chord shapes are great for instantly playing songs/progressions, but my "perceived limitations" are that the over use of chord shapes can lead to total reliance on these shapes. As we know, there are many choices for playing a chord's notes on the guitar's fretboard, I've found that the exploration of these choices can lead to very rewarding and imaginative sounds. Obviously, this approach will not suit everyone's style of playing.

frankus

bingefeller said:

frankus said:

Originality in Jazz is a by-product (to my mind). Originating from necessity to play new tunes and making mistakes due to lack of familiarity or practice time - it's more about pulling it off and having a bit of verve than being cerebral - I kinda appreciate Jobim's rejection of the intellectualising of music.

Care to expand upon this?

Probably from Mark Levine's book. Jazz musicians were the jukebox of the day, they had to pick up show tunes quickly and play them after one listen or someone singing it to them. If they got notes wrong it had to sound good still so everyone would keep dancing.. at some stage acceptance of the "variation on a theme" is deemed improvisation and Jazz Improv is born. I imagine lots of booze was involved.

Can't remember where I read the article on Getz/Gilberto and a backlash being held against Beebop and several forms of Jazz that some deemed as being too cerebral to really be classed as Jazz.

I'm not a Jazz historian, I just know the sound it makes when it takes a man's life

frankus

GuyBoden said:

frankus said:

I can't see the problem with chord shapes as a modality of playing. It's not always going to be appropriate, but I'd like to understand your reservations or perceived limitations.

As I stated, chord shapes are great for instantly playing songs/progressions, but my "perceived limitations" are that the over use of chord shapes can lead to total reliance on these shapes. As we know, there are many choices for playing a chord's notes on the guitar's fretboard, I've found that the exploration of these choices can lead to very rewarding and imaginative sounds. Obviously, this approach will not suit everyone's style of playing.

Okay I'll be honest, when I see someone using the word stated, and quotes wrapped around my choice of words I immediately think the conversation has gone south, based on (hopefully) a misunderstanding. Maybe 'perceived limitations' was too blunt a phrase, I didn't mean to imply your perception was flawed, far from. I did say reservations too, perhaps the ordering gave one more prominence.. or maybe the tone of the other comments (or previous interaction) influenced it.. anyway I didn't mean anything more than I wanted to understand better.

Perhaps there's a misunderstanding around my view of chords. I'm not advocating a Mickey Baker 21 chords to cover pretty much everything. I like his voicings they're good, strong and useful but pretty soon Danny Boy, The Nearness of You, On the Street Where You Live .. can all sound identical and white-bread (or worse brown-bread).

My view is in a live situation you can't improvise what you don't know. As soon as the frontal lobes start interrupting the amygdala the flow is gone, mistakes and choking happen. So tricks like grabbing notes from a scale in 3rds or 4ths in a harmonic context (if you're really cooking) but for the rest of the time it's a lower order of techniques with a greater deference to timing. But that's just my view.

At present I'm not sure if I've misunderstood the original post, so I don't want to drag it off topic any more than I have

GuyBoden

If I have some spare time, I'll post a recorded example.

Roland

GuyBoden said:

Shapes are great for instant playing................

Chord shapes and scale patterns are both forms of scaffolding.  You can choose which to use, and which additional notes to fit around them.  If you think of melody as tension and resolution then the further off scaffold you go the more tension you create.

GuyBoden

Roland said:

GuyBoden said:

Shapes are great for instant playing................

Chord shapes and scale patterns are both forms of scaffolding.  You can choose which to use, and which additional notes to fit around them.  If you think of melody as tension and resolution then the further off scaffold you go the more tension you create.

Sure, that's probably the most common approach for Rock/Pop/Jazz, but there are other approaches that are not reliant on Chord shapes........  

frankus

Are we saying that other approaches exist or other approaches have advantages?

I'd be interested to know if there are limitations as at present I view any approach as I view any martial art - the human body only moves a finite number of ways: all that really differentiates martial arts is how we practice those moves and their prevalence.

To my mind F melodic minor is Bb7 and C7 note clusters, so all the 7,9,11,13 voicings are in the mix, the difference is I recall the sound of voicings far better than scales. But that might be because I'm doing something wrong   

Roland

GuyBoden said:

Sure, that's probably the most common approach for Rock/Pop/Jazz, but there are other approaches that are not reliant on Chord shapes........  

Most classical music is built around chords and scales, although the player is not always required to hold down the chord shape when playing it. To get fresh ideas by moving away from chords and scales you would need to choose something like 12 tone sequencing, where the notes are always played in the same sequence, but the timing and duration are changed

bingefeller

In my jazz studies, numerous books and online teachers recommended the way to learn tunes is to play through the changes with only the 3rds and 7ths of each chord then go from there and add in other notes to colour the chords.  Works well for composition too.  

frankus

Roland said:

GuyBoden said:

Sure, that's probably the most common approach for Rock/Pop/Jazz, but there are other approaches that are not reliant on Chord shapes........  

Most classical music is built around chords and scales, although the player is not always required to hold down the chord shape when playing it. To get fresh ideas by moving away from chords and scales you would need to choose something like 12 tone sequencing, where the notes are always played in the same sequence, but the timing and duration are changed

I've still got my copy of Slonimsky - it's in pristine condition

GuyBoden

frankus said:I've still got my copy of Slonimsky - it's in pristine condition

The other popular 1950's music book for Jazzers was George Russell's "The Lydian Chromatic Concept".  

GuyBoden

bingefeller said:

In my jazz studies, numerous books and online teachers recommended the way to learn tunes is to play through the changes with only the 3rds and 7ths of each chord then go from there and add in other notes to colour the chords.  Works well for composition too.  

Yes, that works for Tertiary Harmony, which is almost all Jazz Standards Pre late 1950's.

frankus

GuyBoden said:

frankus said:I've still got my copy of Slonimsky - it's in pristine condition

The other popular 1950's music book for Jazzers was George Russell's "The Lydian Chromatic Concept".  

I've got that and Reg Smith Brindle ... it got to a point where I figured I'd rather play ... I'd still rather just play ... but I've got family :S waddayado?

frankus

GuyBoden said:

bingefeller said:

In my jazz studies, numerous books and online teachers recommended the way to learn tunes is to play through the changes with only the 3rds and 7ths of each chord then go from there and add in other notes to colour the chords.  Works well for composition too.  

Yes, that works for Tertiary Harmony, which is almost all Jazz Standards Pre late 1950's.

I'm spotting a "pre late 50s" theme here... have you got something you'd like to get off your chest?

GuyBoden

frankus said:

GuyBoden said:

bingefeller said:

In my jazz studies, numerous books and online teachers recommended the way to learn tunes is to play through the changes with only the 3rds and 7ths of each chord then go from there and add in other notes to colour the chords.  Works well for composition too.  

Yes, that works for Tertiary Harmony, which is almost all Jazz Standards Pre late 1950's.

I'm spotting a "pre late 50s" theme here... have you got something you'd like to get off your chest?

Just that some Jazzers started experimenting with using different harmonic concepts after the late 1950's, Modal, Quartal, Quintal etc, this is mostly non Tertiary Harmony. These "newish" harmonic ideas had been used by Modern Classical composers like Debussy for most of the century and some Jazzers started using them after the late 1950's.


"There is nothing new in art except talent" Anton Chekhov

bingefeller

GuyBoden said:

bingefeller said:

In my jazz studies, numerous books and online teachers recommended the way to learn tunes is to play through the changes with only the 3rds and 7ths of each chord then go from there and add in other notes to colour the chords.  Works well for composition too.  

Yes, that works for Tertiary Harmony, which is almost all Jazz Standards Pre late 1950's.

I'm pretty certain you can do it for absolutely any song ever written that has a chord progression too.

GuyBoden

bingefeller said:

GuyBoden said:

bingefeller said:

In my jazz studies, numerous books and online teachers recommended the way to learn tunes is to play through the changes with only the 3rds and 7ths of each chord then go from there and add in other notes to colour the chords.  Works well for composition too.  

Yes, that works for Tertiary Harmony, which is almost all Jazz Standards Pre late 1950's.

I'm pretty certain you can do it for absolutely any song ever written that has a chord progression too.

What about modern compositions, where the harmony avoids using any thirds.

bingefeller

GuyBoden;817283" said:

bingefeller said:



GuyBoden said:



bingefeller said:

In my jazz studies, numerous books and online teachers recommended the way to learn tunes is to play through the changes with only the 3rds and 7ths of each chord then go from there and add in other notes to colour the chords.  Works well for composition too.  





Yes, that works for Tertiary Harmony, which is almost all Jazz Standards Pre late 1950's.












I'm pretty certain you can do it for absolutely any song ever written that has a chord progression too.





What about modern compositions, where the harmony avoids using any thirds.

Ok, semantics aside, any song that has chords which have 3rds in them unless it's a modern composition that has no 3rds. Happy?