Which major scales are best to learn?

trevjo7

hi everyone

I'm struggling with info overload regarding the correct major scale patterns to learn. After trying various suggestions I now use the CAGED patterns. However, I feel the these are not providing the 'full picture' as were, so all advise really welcome.

The other issue is that i wish to try to harmonize the scale in intervals of 3rds (later 5ths, one step at a time though) so I really need an accurate major scale map of the fretboard. 

Help me out please.

(from a very visual learner)

Trev

bingefeller

Good diagram here. 

http://www.guitarforanyone.com/images/C_major_guitar_scale.gif

trevjo7

Thank you So much for this my friend. I suppose once thoroughly learned then most of the 'other' scales as it were can be pulled from this???

Trev

Brad

I suppose there isn't exactly a 'correct' major scale pattern(s) to learn as such. There are many approaches that work for different folks. Some like CAGED, others 3 note per string etc...

What really worked for me was getting all 12 keys down within frets 1-5. If you're already familiar with the CAGED system, all those shapes crop up, plus a few extra ones giving a 'bigger picture' and better connectivity over the fretboard in my opinion. I then made scale diagrams as I went along so I had them in a visual format. Was a fair bit of work, but well worth it in my experience at least.

Jack_

I prefer 3 notes per string, because it naturally keeps a rhythm and it forces you to acquire good finger dexterity, working on the gap between your first and second fingers allows you to ascend and descend the scale more naturally, rather than trying to use first and third.

I find when playing using CAGED, then when I get to the strings where there are only 2 notes it ruins my flow a little bit.

trevjo7

Brad said:

I suppose there isn't exactly a 'correct' major scale pattern(s) to learn as such. There are many approaches that work for different folks. Some like CAGED, others 3 note per string etc...

What really worked for me was getting all 12 keys down within frets 1-5. If you're already familiar with the CAGED system, all those shapes crop up, plus a few extra ones giving a 'bigger picture' and better connectivity over the fretboard in my opinion. I then made scale diagrams as I went along so I had them in a visual format. Was a fair bit of work, but well worth it in my experience at least.

Hi Brad

Thanks very much for taking to time to respond to my question. I may well stick to the CAGED system as I suffer from memory problems and this method may well help me better than others. how did you go aout getting

ll 12 keys down within frets 1-5?

Trevor

Megii

At the risk of being a smartarse (and I'm a long way from knowing everything) I did this summary of how I think re major scale shapes. The root note is shown in red, the other notes of the principal shape are in black, and the ones shown in blue are alternative places to find notes, or extend the shape upwards. It incorporates the "7 shape using finger stretches" approach, but also encompasses CAGED and 3NPS. Obviously I like making diagrams, but I find it's very true that none of it is of any use until it's firmly in one's brain, both in terms of the pattern and it's sound.

 I did a similar one for the jazz (melodic) minor shapes if of interest, but perhaps I'd better stop digging at this point...

trevjo7

bingefeller said:

Good diagram here. 

http://www.guitarforanyone.com/images/C_major_guitar_scale.gif

Hi there, excuse my ignorance, but is this diagram know as 'three notes per string' form?

Megii

'Three notes per string' is where you strictly have 3 notes covered on every string, which generally means you end up moving to a higher position (i.e. further up the neck) as you go from the low E to high E strings. So those shapes above aren't 3NPS, because on some of the strings, there are only 2 notes. Hope that helps

Brad

trevjo7 said:

Thanks very much for taking to time to respond to my question. I may well stick to the CAGED system as I suffer from memory problems and this method may well help me better than others. how did you go aout getting

ll 12 keys down within frets 1-5?

Trevor

First off, I wrote down the notes of each major scale following the cycle of 5ths to F# (for # keys) and the cycle of 4ths to Gb (for flat keys) to refer to as I went along so...

C Major - C D E F G A B

G Major - G A B C D E F#

D Major - D E F# G A B C#

etc etc till you get to F# Maj

C Major - C D E F G A B

F Major - F G A Bb C D E

Bb Major - Bb C D Eb F G A

etc etc till you get to Gb Maj

I got a sheet of blank chord/scale boxes and using my guitar I got to work putting all the notes of the C Major scale between frets 1-5 down. Once I sorted that I did G major, changing all the F's to F#. Figured that out on the guitar (you'll probably already know that shape!) wrote it down on the scale box. Next D Major, changing all the C's (referring to the G Major shape!!) to C#. Changed all the G's in D major to G# to get the A Major scale. And on and on...

I found this useful as I could then see how the scales 'evolve' on the fretboard as I was learning them and also having a deeper understanding of them intellectually for lack of a better word. Please note, some shapes you'll have the option to play the note C on either the 5th fret G string or 1st fret B string. I'd pick one place to play that note and stick with it till you really get the shapes under your fingers.

Regarding 'memory problems', getting 12 keys within frets 1-5 (then all over the fretboard) seems such a huge task, and it kinda is. But know that you're not actually learning 12 different shapes. If you know the CAGED system they all crop up as you'll find out if you give it a try. Plus G and Gb/F# as well as D and Db major are exactly the same shape just a semi tone up/down from each other. A and Ab, C and F are very similar in shape. So you're not exactly learning 12 different fingerings...

Just take your time, be methodical and don't stress if it feels it's taking a while.   

Phil_aka_Pip

I found that by learning each of the 7 3NPS scale patterns, because they're moveable, you can use them in any key. ergo, 7 things to learn giving you all major keys depending on which part of the fingerboard you use them.

If you want to play them all in the same key, try shape 1 starting on F, shape 2 starting on G, etc all the way up the F maj scale, but if you go too far with that approach you get used to seeing your fingers play the patterns with respect to the dot markers on the fingerboard which will then become a dependency you have to break later.

thomasross20

To me you just have to learn all the 7 modal shapes. Then be able to start any scale from a root on E or A string (for starters) to the left and to the right of the root note. I think more in terms of the modal boxes (3nps just comes out of that). 

E.g. C major starting on 3rd fret A string is played over G mixolydian shape (referred to low E string) if to the right of fret 3.... or played over F lydian shape (again referred to low E string). 3nps enables you to bridge the gap. I HAVE to view it as whole shapes starting from the E string because that gives me a whole shape over the whole 6 strings. If I just started playing C upward from the A string one fret 3.... without thinking about what shape it's superimposed upon when referred to the low E string... then I wouldn't know what notes to play on the low E string! It's ALL THE SAME, anyway.... just different ways of looking at it. On jamplay just now I'm watching some guy doing CAGED & arps and he literally knows the notes on the fretboard so well, and his scales degrees so well, that he doesn't remember shapes at all - he just plays the notes in his head and targets them on the fretboard. I could NEVER do that!! I'm strictly a shapes player - at speed I think you have to be. 

So I can start off a scale on E or A string, to the left or right of the root note, and always refer back to a shape starting on the E string. It covers a lot of ground. 

nickp

@trevjo7

forgive me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that you are trying to eat a very large elephant in one bite (to wreck a metaphor).

CAGED, and its use to help learn scales and chords, soloing etc is a large subject that will take many months or years to be able to usefully apply in a gigging or playing context.

You look and sound a bit like me at the beginning trying to grasp large bits but the danger is that you won't be able to apply anything.

Why not get a structured course to approach CAGED - something like the fretboard navigator DVDs from lick library.  This probably has 6 months of intense work in itself and perhaps a year or so.

Firstly learn the notes on the fretboard.  secondly learn how to play all the major and minor chords in all the keys.  takes longer to type this reply than to actually play them, if you have done your work properly.  Then move on to learning the minor and major pentatonics, in all 5 caged positions - but playing them in patterns, not just across the 6 strings.  Also play them on two string groupings so you get used to moving up and down the fretboard  That's 6 months of work there.  probably.  Then from there you can start looking at arpeggios based on the 5 caged chord shapes - that's where I am now.  I anticipate 6-12 months work to be able to start freely navigating the fretboard through chord changes using arpeggios 

But I think you need to build this stuff up on the fretboard so you can really really play each stage before moving on and for that reason take care not to try to grasp it all - ignore what you don't know and concentrate on focussed practical work on the fretboard with a metronome, night after night after night after night (probably at least 15 mins a day on this sort of technical practice)

tiz a long haul

GuyBoden

Good stuff, it does take a lot of time to learn the fretboard, but there's no point in rushing, I try to make it enjoyable by playing melodies within each pattern and playing melodies with linked patterns.

I have practice routines that I use every day, one of my favs is playing the notes slowly and singing each note's name.

Phil_aka_Pip

I wonder if before you start parroting patterns (although there's nothing wrong with muscle memory) it wouldn't be worthwhile to make a map of the guitar fingerboard from first principles:

1. Each adjacent pair of natural note names is a whole tone (2 frets) apart with the exception of pairs BC & EF which are a semitone (1 fret apart).
2. Now draw a fingerboard and write them in.
3. (This is a slight simplification because it ignores B# = C and so on) the remaining unmarked positions are the sharps & flats between the natural note names, eg the one between C & D is called either C# or Db depending on what key you are in.
4. Mark those in.

Now you have your map, you can overlay your fingering patterns and for most scales you will know what to call the notes in them, so long as you (a) never mix # and b in the same key (b) ensure you have precisely one of each note name present. The keys with a lot of #s (F#, C#) in may present a problem: you've got a note that looks like an F or a C but you can't call it that because you've already got an F# or a C#. Those are E# and B#. Similarly in keys with a lot of bs you may need 'B' = Cb or 'E' = Fb.

thomasross20

Did anybody get the last issue or two of GT? 

One article was parallel major and minor chords. 

The backing tracks were at a decent speed and as I was reading the music (well, the TAB and chords!) I just found myself flummoxed trying to think what I would play over each chord in the heat of the moment. All of this is without guitar in hand, just mental practice, as such. 

My earlier technique about learning what to play to the left and right of the root starting from the low E or A string has a slight gap (what to play if the root happens on the D string, what shape to play to the right of that)... Take Fmajor. I can play major shape (referenced to low E) from frets 13-15 or so. Or play over D minor shape which is just to the left. Or if I'm in the 8th fret area I know F is A string fret 8 so I can play over the C mixolydian shape (to the right) or Bb lydian (to the left) - those last two of course referencing the low E string when stating the modes. There's the section from frets 15-17/18 not covered. Clearly dorian shape but my problem is that I seem to have to reference to an F root note then figure out the underlying shape (referenced to E string) and it all takes a lot of mental processing power. OK, playing over major and minor chord shapes would be a lot easier and likely the thing to do when at speed.... but is there an easier way? TBH if this was a jam situation I'd be highly embarrassed. Also, good not to jump around to root notes too much and be able to play in the one position for all changes. 

--> Definitely moving away from technique and more into fretboard awareness and musical chord changes now. Is it just me or is this pretty difficult? 

thomasross20

Decent routines, @nickp. Lots of memorisation.

It's amazing but even something like taking the pentatonic patterns and trying to play two notes on a string... and two notes on a lower string (say B and A strings!) and then move up the fretboard and repeat etc etc.... I would actually stall at some point! I tend to think of going from one shape to the next. Some licks I've internalised and I can run up the fretboard but trying what I just suggested - really exposes weakness! 

Once I have a shape (usually modal) in my mind based on some root note I then tend to play by shapes and move up and down them - if I move too far away from the one I started with I have to try and re-align myself. 

Am I the only one!?

nickp

@thomasross20 - nope you are not the only one.  From what I understand having conversations with students and teachers at the IGF ( and from lessons with Jason Sidwell as I only live 2 minutes away from him). 

As far as I gather, it is a question of taking different approaches to the basics - such as pentatonics and spending time just practicing the different ways of playing them until it starts to get internalised.  For instance Bonamassa nicked some of his style from Eric Johnson - in that he has practiced sequences (pattern playing) within pentatonic scales and this comes out in his cascading soloing style as he frequently runs groups of 6,5,4 notes in a long sequence moving through pentatonic shapes and he must have got this via endless repetition.

I guess it also helps to learn licks or songs by pros who play "in the style" that you are after - but not just parrot learn but also try to understand why the bits you like work over the chords underneath.  Otherwise it all gets a bit dry and boring - so i'm currently starting to try to learn songs by SRV, Robben Ford and Matt Schofield to broaden my use and vocabulary of all this technical stuff!

Phil_aka_Pip

The last few posts strike me as being indicative of having learned a few scale patterns in various positions but not really having them connected up. Taking the F major example and assuming the 3NPS patterns, you've got one for each mode of F major, the lowest being in the first position for Fmaj itself, the next being G dorian in the 3rd position, etc. But I don't think of it as G dorian, A phrygian, etc I just think of them all as F major and play F major all over the fingerboard. This IMO has its own drawbacks, in that it's hard work to play a G dorian feel over a G minor vamp, because I'm likely to play F major and land on non-chord tones so my licks aren't really going to fit. The upside of it is that I can play F major anywhere and not worry about which part of F major I'm playing.

thomasross20

When you play F maj in the 3rd position do you play the notes on the lower strings or just the 3nps patterns you know (on the higher strings in that position)? With my modal-shape referencing I can literally play every note anywhere and not worry about it. I always saw the 3nps as limiting - a subset of learning the shapes all over. Same with arps and pentatonics - they're subsets of the whole shape so I jumped straight to it.

I agree you have to memorise the "in-between" scale shapes. 

If I'm doing E dorian I've got it down 100% and can blister up and down the whole fretboard without thought. Shift it to F# dorian or Elydian or whatever and then I have to think some!

nickp - can you expand upon the conversations you had? 

Agree, good to practice practical things in the style... 

daveww

The RGT grades provide an excellent approach to learning your scales and applying them. As others have said this shouldn't be rushed and the time taken to progress will depend on where you start and how much time you've got to practice. I'd recommend doing them but you can also look on the site and it tells you what scales and other theory you need to learn for each grade.