Octaves

midiglitch

octatonic said:

midiglitch said:

There are proper terms for these things.
In physics they are harmonic partials and the octave is the 1st harmonic / 2nd overtone or 2nd harmonic.

When I studied acoustics we were taught that the 1st harmonic is the fundamental and the octave was the 1st overtone/2nd harmonic.

Science of Sound (Rossing, Wheeler, Moore) is quite specific on this.

Yes, quite right. I meant to say 1st partial/ 2nd overtone /2nd harmonic

Phil_aka_Pip

@daveww enjoyable, but makes the usual mistake: the division of the string length in 2 is only an "octave" if you divide the note space between the half-length and the full-length into 8 notes. Whereas the division of the string length in 2 is a physical phenomenon regardless of the number of notes you divide the note space between the full length and the half length into!

ChrisMusic

Now that hit the spot.  Well put.  Wisdom returned.

edit for general clarification: a succinct question is half the battle, (talking to theFretBoard may be the other half ! )  

Phil_aka_Pip

Thanks Chris. To be fair though, it did start with the halving of string length. Which is more than some tutorials do!

daveww

I though it made the pint quite well.  The string divided into two each time.  Doesn't matter how many intervals in each half it's still an "octave".

Phil_aka_Pip

which is only accurate when there are 8 notes in each division of the string. Try telling that to an African or a Chinese and they'll think you're daft because they divide it up into 5 not 8.

Listen: Octave comes from the Latin for 8. That's 8 notes geddit? FUCK ALL to do with halving the length of a string!!!!!

viz

I understand where you're coming from

octatonic

Phil_aka_Pip said:

which is only accurate when there are 8 notes in each division of the string. Try telling that to an African or a Chinese and they'll think you're daft because they divide it up into 5 not 8.

Listen: Octave comes from the Latin for 8. That's 8 notes geddit? FUCK ALL to do with halving the length of a string!!!!!

Not if you understand why they are called pythagorean intervals and what Mr Pythagorus was doing with his string.

viz

It's a bit like the word decimate meaning destroy, but I guess literally it means divide into 10 parts, because we arbritarily seem to have 10 digits.

daveww

Yes the word octave is based on eight but what it actually is has nothing to do with eight. It based on frequencies that occur when the string is halved. Isn't it lol

Phil_aka_Pip

viz said:

It's a bit like the word decimate meaning destroy, but I guess literally it means divide into 10 parts, because we arbritarily seem to have 10 digits.

to a point yes. a roman commander who decimated his legion as a punishment for poor performance killed every tenth man. it was a dreadful punishment but people use the word today to imply almost total destruction, whereas it actually means 10% destruction.

viz

Ah ha! YLSNED

Phil_aka_Pip

octatonic said:

Not if you understand why they are called pythagorean intervals and what Mr Pythagorus was doing with his string.

If you are saying that the 8 notes that make up the subdivision of the space between the whole length of the string and half its length are derived from his harmonics, yes I agree. You collect up these partials, divide their frequencies down, and you've got a set of notes with frequencies between f and 2f which make up a scale.

frankus

We don't need other words!

Back in the 90s Sesame Street did a show about Big Bird called Roy - who was fed up with being called Big Bird ... because he was a big bird ... he chose the name Roy.

It tanked.

Why did it tank? Three year olds don't understand that Big Bird and big bird are two different things, they thought Big Bird wanted to be a person and it was distressing to them.

As adults we should know that words have domains and contexts.

Personally I think we need fewer words and more thoughts, ideas and actions being un-named - unshared except through experience.

The internet has fooled a lot of people into thinking that knowing a word is sufficient and enables that person as much as a person who's experienced a thing.

Ever known someone who's not got a grasp of phonetics and says stuff comically wrong with utmost conviction? Turning the diurnal in dyearnall? Words enable conceit and that's not great for learning.

viz said:

It's a bit like the word decimate meaning destroy, but I guess literally it means divide into 10 parts, because we arbritarily seem to have 10 digits.

Decimation was the punishment a Roman Legion suffered if it lost in battle, the men were lined up and every tenth man was killed by his companions. If a Roman army lost, automatically, decimation was it's fate. If a Roman soldier returned and told someone "we were decimated" it means much much more than "we were defeated". Look how the impact of that word has died. He killed one of his own unit - think about it... someone unfamiliar wouldn't be told the full detail "well we lost the battle and afterwards we were forced to kill our friend or we'd all be killed".

frankus

daveww said:

Yes the word octave is based on eight but what it actually is has nothing to do with eight. It based on frequencies that occur when the string is halved. Isn't it lol

Most things we know have 7 qualities? measures of time, colours (who really sees indigo and blue?), sins, measures of distances ... the value seven is based on a principle that our brains can only differentiate a small number of things.

I could dig out the research if you're interested, if you really must know.

Six is the norm. So Octave is the 8th note - considered the same as the root note - leaving 6 other notes.

ChrisMusic

Other misnomers; October is the tenth month and December is the twelfth month despite OCT meaning 8 and DEC meaning ten, we only have two egotistical Roman Emperors to blame for that.  Thanks to Julius and Augustus for stealing the best part of the year, in the northern hemisphere at least, and naming it after themselves.

Not the first time ego or self interest has over ruled and damaged a simple and effective system, and certainly will not be the last time either.  Challenge and review is healthy, and motivations always need questioning.

So when was the last time you questioned the accepted orthodoxies?

Phil_aka_Pip

Once upon a time the new year didn't begin in January, so October would have been the 8th month.

ChrisMusic

An octave is basically 7 'unique' notes returning to the eighth or first note (a duality) which is a half/double frequency repeat of the previous first note - ie, elusive un-named concept we are looking at here, (or should I have said inappropriately named?).

A simple word for it would have made the preceding sentence both shorter and clearer, and probably less ambiguous.

Obviously the octave concept refers to the eighth note returning / closing the circle, and becoming the first again, a kind of transformation, and assumes a surrounding ecosystem of western music orthodoxy.

Major scale used in western music, and its immediate derivatives, are counted in base seven, ie 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1~1, 1~2, 1~3, 1~4, 1~5, 1~6, 1~7, 2~1, 2~2, etc

A conceptual numeric problem here is that the 1st series if notionally preceded by zero and the second series is preceded by one (etc) a confusing part of numerical notation and another concept overdue for revision (along with a lot of other mathematical inconsistencies)

So our octave or supposed eight note system is actually looking more like a seven note system (one that uses base-7 math)

With thanks to @frankus for pointing that out earlier.

ChrisMusic

frankus said:   Decimation was the punishment a Roman Legion suffered if it lost in battle, the men were lined up and every tenth man was killed by his companions. If a Roman army lost, automatically, decimation was it's fate. If a Roman soldier returned and told someone "we were decimated" it means much much more than "we were defeated". Look how the impact of that word has died. He killed one of his own unit - think about it... someone unfamiliar wouldn't be told the full detail "well we lost the battle and afterwards we were forced to kill our friend or we'd all be killed".

That is very a disturbing thought, and not just for modern minds either.  I knew the previous explanation, but this expansion is far darker.

An intense negative motivator that elevates death in battle as a preferable option to being vanquished.  I presume it is a logistical problem for the army too, being in a vulnerable position with demotivated (read "head fucked") troops now depleted in numbers and needing reinforcing with trained soldiers back to the full Centurions century.

Morbid fascination gets the better of me, do you know how the selection was made?

ChrisMusic

frankus said:   Most things we know have 7 qualities? measures of time, colours (who really sees indigo and blue?), sins, measures of distances ... the value seven is based on a principle that our brains can only differentiate a small number of things. Six is the norm.

I believe that many Native American cultures have very simple quantitative concepts, along the lines of - one, two, three and many.

Asked if he has a lot of grandchildren an elder will probably reply "many".

It is an apt concept if you consider life through their eyes, our level of detail is just superfluous in that context.