I'm rubbish at improv

axisus

To anyone who doesn't play guitar, I am absolutely amazing at improv (apparently!). I'm sometimes caught playing along to backing tracks at lunchbreaks, and people are pretty blown away. However, the fact is that I mostly use the blues scale and play the same things all the time, which obviously sounds different when played at different speeds and in different keys, but basically it's the same old one-dimensional junk. I just don't feel that I have an ounce of creativity in me. I've always had zero theory knowledge and no ability to learn or practice. I'm just an old dog looking for a new trick. 

I've looked at modes over the years, but to be honest I found it impossible to make any headway there. I found a 'cheat' to play the notes of a mode by shifting my usual scale up and down a bit, but it only works if I know what mode to play in as I can't analyse chords at all.

Anyone got any thoughts on how I could spice things up a bit? To be honest, I think that suggestions will probably be too much effort for my feeble capacity, but I'm willing to at least have a go at something.

bingefeller

What do you know?  Pentatonics?

Megii

On one level @axisus, I think just forget about all the theory stuff. Do you have ideas or musical phrases in your head, that you don't seem to use in practice? If so, try and figure out how to play them - like if you hear a chord, or sequence of chords, and that seems to suggest some kind of phrase in your mind, just noodle around on the guitar finding those actual notes in practice, and ways to finger them. It's slow and awkward at first, but over time you will develop a kind of instinctive feel for where sounds (musical phrases and ideas) are on the guitar, plus an associated muscle memory, and you can use those sounds in response to what chords and harmony you are playing over.

Barney

im in a similar situation ...i got really bored with my playing i was playing the same ideas and stuff but was hearing things 8n other peoples playing that i liked and what i wasn't doing...

iv basically started again...iv always played legato and hybrid ..iv stopped both of them for now ...i can easily go back but the point was my picking wasn't very good ...so for the past 6 months or so iv been alternate picking mostly and its getting much better

the other thing was playing over changes ....the harder ones ...iv started going through all the arps again learning them all in one position in all keys then moving to the next position ....same with altered scale ..im getting that into my playing as well over the functioning 5 chord...

the most important thing i have found and it works ....is sometimes its good to just forget the way you play and go into new ground just a little at a time ...and spend a lot of time on one subject until you are great at it....just like with the pentatonic scale ....and definitely the way to do it is just constant repetition until you cant stand it any more then do it the next day and day after until its second nature. ..so maybe instead of just playing pentatonic maybe work on some arps that are part of the key your .....but whatever it is its just down to repetition and playing it in different keys over a backer ...before long it will start coming out naturally as part of your playing ...look how good we are at the standard box pentatonic....its because we do it all the time....hope this helps cos i was in the same boat a while back

Nomad

Think in terms of melodies and tunes. Try playing a few famous ones, like Speak Softly Love (Godfather theme), Beethoven's Fur Elise, etc. Anything that you're already familiar with and happen to like. You don't need to know any scales, modes, or even what key it's in - you just need to be able to hear the melody in your head and work out the notes on the guitar. Hit a YouTube vid or two if you need a reminder, try playing along, and then try again unaccompanied. After a while, you should start being able to pick out famous melodies without having to spend a lot of time working out the notes on the guitar. Aim to get to the stage where, if you can hear it in your head, or sing it, you can play it.

Then comes the trickier bit - playing melodies that aren't from famous tunes wot were wrote by someone else.

Listen to music without playing guitar. Try singing or whistling along when the mood takes you. If you find a melody or phrase developing, repeat it a few times until it's more fixed in your head, and then try it on guitar. Repeat a few times. After a while, you might want it to be a little different - try to play it that way without breaking stride.

Another approach is to play one note jams with yourself. Pluck two strings for every note, the thumb playing a drone on a single string, and the forefinger picking out the melody. If you use the E or A string for the drone, you have plenty of strings left for diddling about with melodies. Retune the drone string if you like. Start with a melody lasting a few bars, and then play different phrases over the same drone. If you get lost, go back to the opening melody and let it drift again to new things when the mood takes you. I do this sort of thing quite a lot on acoustic. It started out as attempts to write pieces, but just ended up being a thing in itself when I realised that I could never remember (or consistently play) whatever came after the opening parts. Now, they're just tunes that start with the opener, disappear into a period of improvisation, and sometimes end with the opener or something similar to it.

For me, improvisation is about being somewhat disassociated from the physical act of playing the instrument. It's like watching myself play while I listen to the tune, but retaining an almost sub-conscious level of control or influence over what happens as the tune progresses. A key thing in doing this is being able to hit the notes in your head. In other words, it's like picking out famous melodies by ear, except the melody is being 'written' as you play it.

beed84

Swap between major and minor pentatonic.

Try chromatic notes in between.

Learn diminished and altered scales. They work great over 5th and 4th chord respectively.

Milk a position of any scale. Limit yourself to certain strings, areas etc.

Go wild and have fun.

Winny_Pooh

If you are still stuck here after many years then you are best off getting lessons. You will have many questions and things to learn that only a teacher may do effectively and wading through the internet and youtube seems unlikely to solve them.

daveww

try some funk and some jazz

57Deluxe

explore the world of doublestops!

riscado

I think I can related to what you've just written, so I'm going to give you my take on things.

I was/am stuck at pretty much what seems to be the same point you're at right now.

I've got a pretty good command of pentatonic scales (both major or minor) all across the neck in any key, plus a pretty good command of major and minor scales all across the neck in any key.

I know lots of chord and chord shapes, and I've tried to know/understand how to build them, rather then just memorizing finger patterns.

Improvisation wise, however I'm pretty much stuck on using pentatonic variations and I struggle with catching up on harmony, chord changes on the fly.

For a long time I was unsure what to do about it, and I'm guessing my main problem was... getting started, so I decided it's time to dig a bit deeper

I took a look at what my shortcomes on guitar are at the moment, and this is the path I've decided to follow to try and improve:

- First I've realized that I'm not able to outline chords notes, so I've decided to learn all 5 (CAGED shapes) of arpeggios for major chords, minor chords, dominant major and dominant minor. That's a total of 20 arpeggio shapes to remember, so not an easy task. My take on this is to first learn to play these shapes so that they become muscle memory, but at the same time associate them with the chords that go along with them.

This not only gives me the knowedlge of the arpeggios, but also a broader knowledge on where the chords are on the fretboard.

After I can do the shapes at ease I moved into locking them together (moving effortlessly from one shape to another until I've completed all 5)

After that comes the hard part, applying them, while playing over chord changes. Slow chords that last a full beat at first and then slowly moving on to faster chord changes with more movement.

- Secondly, I am not familiar with chord progressions / changes, I'm still not sure how to go on about this one, but I'm guessing I'm going to have to give the circle of fifths another long hard look.

And possibly play around with chords until I'm familiar with the changes implied.

- Finally, I realize that even though I'm able to play parts of song, very rarely do I commit to actually learning a full song. Much like yourself, people will notice that I have some knowledge and time put into my playing, but if anyone asks me to play a song, I'm almost 99,9% certain I won't know one from start to finish. And this is, I believe, a big part of what makes a good musician.

After I've gone through these I'm hoping new doors will open and I'll be able to naturally progress into other stuff (you never stop learning).

stickyfiddle

Megii said:

On one level @axisus, I think just forget about all the theory stuff. Do you have ideas or musical phrases in your head, that you don't seem to use in practice? If so, try and figure out how to play them - like if you hear a chord, or sequence of chords, and that seems to suggest some kind of phrase in your mind, just noodle around on the guitar finding those actual notes in practice, and ways to finger them. It's slow and awkward at first, but over time you will develop a kind of instinctive feel for where sounds (musical phrases and ideas) are on the guitar, plus an associated muscle memory, and you can use those sounds in response to what chords and harmony you are playing over.

This. This. This. This. This. This. This!

Improv is not about knowing what scales work over chords, it's about imagining melodies and making them come out of the guitar. Scales will get you playing in tune, but they won't get you playing tunes. 

nickp

stickyfiddle said:

Megii said:

On one level @axisus, I think just forget about all the theory stuff. Do you have ideas or musical phrases in your head, that you don't seem to use in practice? If so, try and figure out how to play them - like if you hear a chord, or sequence of chords, and that seems to suggest some kind of phrase in your mind, just noodle around on the guitar finding those actual notes in practice, and ways to finger them. It's slow and awkward at first, but over time you will develop a kind of instinctive feel for where sounds (musical phrases and ideas) are on the guitar, plus an associated muscle memory, and you can use those sounds in response to what chords and harmony you are playing over.

This. This. This. This. This. This. This!

Improv is not about knowing what scales work over chords, it's about imagining melodies and making them come out of the guitar. Scales will get you playing in tune, but they won't get you playing tunes. 

is it though?  surely using arps and scales or whatever in practice starts to get "sounds" ingrained in your head and fingers - after all improv is mainly (for us mortals) playing what we broadly already know and are familiar with.  same with learning other solo's - so if you like robben ford, then learn robben ford songs n solos and then you'll instinctively start (after a shed load of woodshedding) to incorporate some ford like melodies n stuff

not saying playing by ear and playing what you are trying to sing hasn't got a place as well

btw I'm trying to learn arps and get them into playing so I target chord tones atm and am also learning some robben ford stuff in an attempt to broaden my vocab!

GuyBoden

I keep it simple, so I can hear what I play and I play what I hear, I also have a reasonable amount of theory to back it up, it's been a 37+ year journey that never ends, a very enjoyable journey, I just enjoy the ever changing trip.........

thecolourbox

One little trick for this that I use (and also for writing basslines or other non-guitar or piano instrument lines) is to sing/hum things instead. Once you've hummed something good it's acutally not that hard with a visual co-ordination instrument like a guitar to work out what the notes are to play them on guitar, which might give you a few new shapes without even bothering with the rigmarole of learning new weird and wonderful scales.

I do much of my improv, song writing or arranging to start with without an instrument at all, because I find my ability to think of and play something new at the same time restricts me to always playing samey samey stuff. Give that a try maybe

viz

^ best advice ever

Blueingreen

nickp said:

stickyfiddle said:

Megii said:

On one level @axisus, I think just forget about all the theory stuff. Do you have ideas or musical phrases in your head, that you don't seem to use in practice? If so, try and figure out how to play them - like if you hear a chord, or sequence of chords, and that seems to suggest some kind of phrase in your mind, just noodle around on the guitar finding those actual notes in practice, and ways to finger them. It's slow and awkward at first, but over time you will develop a kind of instinctive feel for where sounds (musical phrases and ideas) are on the guitar, plus an associated muscle memory, and you can use those sounds in response to what chords and harmony you are playing over.

This. This. This. This. This. This. This!

Improv is not about knowing what scales work over chords, it's about imagining melodies and making them come out of the guitar. Scales will get you playing in tune, but they won't get you playing tunes. 

is it though?  surely using arps and scales or whatever in practice starts to get "sounds" ingrained in your head and fingers - after all improv is mainly (for us mortals) playing what we broadly already know and are familiar with.  same with learning other solo's - so if you like robben ford, then learn robben ford songs n solos and then you'll instinctively start (after a shed load of woodshedding) to incorporate some ford like melodies n stuff

not saying playing by ear and playing what you are trying to sing hasn't got a place as well

btw I'm trying to learn arps and get them into playing so I target chord tones atm and am also learning some robben ford stuff in an attempt to broaden my vocab!

This corresponds to my experience.  I'm self-taught and not the most sophisticated musician but I can, for example, play the altered notes on a resolving dominant chord and make it sound like music.  I know quite a number of naturally talented musicians, including many who would count themselves jazz fans, who can't do that.  

Why?  Because I practised running altered and whole note scales and diminished scales against resolving dominants until I started to hear it. When I started doing that I sounded like a guy playing scales not music. In my defence I didn't subject any listeners to that.  And eventually you get to the point where you know how, say, a flat 9 will sound in a given context and when it can be used in a way that contributes to a satisfying musical phrase.

I'm not making any claims for myself.  There's a huge gap between my level and anyone I would consider a genuinely good contemporary jazz improviser and I started too late, and didn't get the formal musical training necessary, to close it (assuming I ever had the talent which I very much doubt).  

But I'm still interested in developing my abilities as much as I can and I don't think I have gotten as far as I have without learning a bit of theory and using to inform the way I practised.

Flink_Poyd

axisus said

Anyone got any thoughts on how I could spice things up a bit? To be honest, I think that suggestions will probably be too much effort for my feeble capacity, but I'm willing to at least have a go at something.

Vary your backing tracks. I'm at heart a wannabee noisy metal guitarist but at my lesson today I ended playing over this



Something I would never have considered TBH

Same scales as noisy metal (E Phrygian and A harmonic minor) but a completely different feel and tempo. The ideas for one work with the other and It helps to keep things fresh

GuyBoden

thecolourbox said:

One little trick for this that I use (and also for writing basslines or other non-guitar or piano instrument lines) is to sing/hum things instead. Once you've hummed something good it's acutally not that hard with a visual co-ordination instrument like a guitar to work out what the notes are to play them on guitar, which might give you a few new shapes without even bothering with the rigmarole of learning new weird and wonderful scales.

I do much of my improv, song writing or arranging to start with without an instrument at all, because I find my ability to think of and play something new at the same time restricts me to always playing samey samey stuff. Give that a try maybe

Yes, singing improvised lines without the guitar is a very good technique, the only draw back I found to this technique is that I needed to add new sounds to my ears by learning new stuff, otherwise I found my improvised lines sounded very samey and became boring fast.

By learning new stuff and being able to sing and internally hear this new stuff, this new stuff will eventually come out in your improvisations naturally.

I like Dave Frank's stuff, he's a top Jazz pianist and educator in the Lennie Tristano mode.