Pickup spacing

thomasross20

So I'm thinking about putting new pups into a guitar (maybe... it's that or sell to get a boutique amp or up-to-date workstation) and I noticed there are several options: F-spacing, 50mm, 53mm.... I measured the distance between 1st and last string on my PRS and it's ~53mm but I've read others saying they measured 49.2mm (sounds precise) and have preferred to use F-spaced pups. 

Anybody?

ajax

I think trem PRSs are wider than stop tails.  PRS use non-F spacing pickups (G spaced or 50mm), but actually F spaced (53mm) is a better fit.  All this only applies to bridge pickups, neck are all the same

guitarfishbay

I don't think it matters beyond aesthetics. My experience of regular spaced pickups in F spaced guitars is they perform as expected.

IIRC @ICBM used a regular spaced Duncan Custom Custom in his PRS

ICBM

guitarfishbay said:

I don't think it matters beyond aesthetics. My experience of regular spaced pickups in F spaced guitars is they perform as expected.

IIRC @ICBM used a regular spaced Duncan Custom Custom in his PRS

Yes.

It makes no difference other than visual as long as the string passes over any part of the polepiece, even right at the edge. And probably very little even beyond that - or when you bend a string so it's in the gap between the polepieces, you would lose the signal.

thomasross20

I thought the signal would be strongest (more lines of flux) directly above each pole piece? 

Why are necks all the same? Surely not...?

Basically I'm looking at Suhr SSH+ and SSV pups. SSH+ (bridge) is available in 50mm or 53mm - which do I choose? 

SSV (for the neck) is also available in 50mm and 53mm - which one??

thomasross20

Also I have to say I think the 59/09s I have are just under 10k resistance and SSH+ are >15k so I wonder if they'd be even hotter, which is what I dont want...

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

I thought the signal would be strongest (more lines of flux) directly above each pole piece?

Yes, but anywhere above the pole at all is as good as anywhere else, and the field spreads out sideways too - it's just not that precise or focused.

Try bending a string on your Suhr on the neck pickup and move it until it's halfway between the two poles - see if you can hear the loss of signal level.

thomasross20 said:

Basically I'm looking at Suhr SSH+ and SSV pups. SSH+ (bridge) is available in 50mm or 53mm - which do I choose? 

SSV (for the neck) is also available in 50mm and 53mm - which one??

For a PRS, 53mm. The string spacing at the bridge is 52.5mm.

ADP

PRS list the bridge 59/09 at 9.3K and the neck at 8.4K. I've measured some at less than that. They're not particularly hot pickups. The Suhrs you mention, on the other hand, are on the very hot side of things. DC resistance isn't necessarily a good indication of these things, of course, but it's hard to imagine a pickup that weighs in at over 15K being anything but sizzling.

John_P

I was very surprised to find that the pickups fitted by PRS are standard spacing - when I've replaced them I've fitted 53mm trem spaced as it looks better imo, but it is just cosmetic and makes no difference to the sound. 

thomasross20

If you buys pups that are 50mm which go into a slot meant for 53mm, is there a gap? 

ICBM yeah I getcha - we do motor control at work and it's all about the rotating flux - just wasn't sure how much of a difference it made

OK so 53mm it is. 

In other news, the tech at guitarguitar has installed the new 57/08 bridge pup and the switch. Pick-up (ho ho) tomorrow. He recommends Bare Knuckle mule in the bridge and riff raff in the neck (or emeralds as an alternative) - his preference of course but he really rates them. 

Not sure now if SSH+ is the way to go if it's even hotter - all I know is it sounds great in the basswood body of the strat-type Suhr I've got and the split sounds are amazing (but then it's different scale and HSS). Covered pups look cool but don't sound as good IMO.

OilCityPickups

thomasross20 said:

Also I have to say I think the 59/09s I have are just under 10k resistance and SSH+ are >15k so I wonder if they'd be even hotter, which is what I dont want...

ADP said:

PRS list the bridge 59/09 at 9.3K and the neck at 8.4K. I've measured some at less than that. They're not particularly hot pickups. The Suhrs you mention, on the other hand, are on the very hot side of things. DC resistance isn't necessarily a good indication of these things, of course, but it's hard to imagine a pickup that weighs in at over 15K being anything but sizzling.

Okay, at the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time ... DC resistance is no real measure of output power. it is number of turns of wire and it's magnet strength that dictate a pickup's output ... not it's resistance. a pickup wound with 10,000 turns (split between the two bobbins) of 42awg wire as used in a PAF for example, will measure about 8k. The same number of turns of thinner 43 gauge wire as used say on a Duncan JB will be about 10k ... but they will be EXACTLY the same output in volume and power. Unless you know the wire gauge used in a pickup DC resistance is a meaningless figure.

As to pole pieces, the actual spacing of most bridge humbuckers that claim to be 53mm is in fact 52mm. or with DiMarzio 51.5mm I believe. Original PAFs were 49.2mm neck and bridge as it is a conversion of an imperial measurement. Modern Les Pauls are 49.2 or 50mm neck and bridge, Fender types are 50mm neck and 52mm bridge.

Pole spacing is purely cosmetic as @ICBM says, the flux pattern at the head of a pole screw is actually quite wide ... 

thomasross20

I gotcha... I know, it's more to do with loop diameter, winding material, magnet, wire type and total current flow (ok, that last one isn't so applicable as you'd hit the string with the same strength). 

jaymenon

TheGuitarWeasel said:

As to pole pieces, the actual spacing of most bridge humbuckers that claim to be 53mm is in fact 52mm. or with DiMarzio 51.5mm I believe. Original PAFs were 49.2mm neck and bridge as it is a conversion of an imperial measurement. Modern Les Pauls are 49.2 or 50mm neck and bridge, Fender types are 50mm neck and 52mm bridge.

Pole spacing is purely cosmetic as @ICBM says, the flux pattern at the head of a pole screw is actually quite wide ... 

Ash and ICBM are wise and helpful souls - and I cannot fault any of what they said which makes perfect sense.

In my personal experience however, with a Vintage Strat bridge 2-7/32" inch spacing, I found that the 1st and 6th strings sat outside the pole pieces of the bridge pickup - as you can see here.

[Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/IG6tKBr.jpg)

On the bridge pickup, when played clean - it didn't affect the volume of the low (6th) E or even the perceived volume of the high (1st) E string, which sounded fine.

However, with the amp set on the edge of overdrive, my 1st string was distinctly quieter on the bridge pickup (not in the other four positions of the selector switch). I got more 'saturation / sustain' on the other strings - and my 1st string remained 'clean' so to speak.

I must admit that in actual fact it didn't make tuppence difference to me since I don't use my Stratocaster for distorted sounds - but the obsessive-compulsive in me needed to solve the problem.

I changed the bridge to a 54mm spacing affair - and the problem went away.

OilCityPickups

I was about to say ... change the bridge 
Your low E was about to jump, lemming style, off the board anyway :-)

impmann

TheGuitarWeasel said:

I was about to say ... change the bridge 
Your low E was about to jump, lemming style, off the board anyway :-)

Thats a solution, but why is it a problem in the first place?

Example picture of a 1955 Strat:

Observe how the strings pass perfectly over the pole pieces for all pickups, yet it will have the vintage, wider string spacing.

Why do the strings not pass so neatly on the guitar above?

I was once told it was to do with the nut spacing relative to the bridge. Can anyone explain in dumbass terms (for a simpleton like me) how that would work and if so, is there some kind of formula to it?

jaymenon

TheGuitarWeasel said:

I was about to say ... change the bridge 
Your low E was about to jump, lemming style, off the board anyway :-)

  

I kept it that way so as to allow my High E to come in a little bit (since I only ever bend the 6th string downwards anyway). It didn't help the 1st string either :-(

jaymenon

impmann said:

Thats a solution, but why is it a problem in the first place?

Example picture of a 1955 Strat:

Observe how the strings pass perfectly over the pole pieces for all pickups, yet it will have the vintage, wider string spacing.

Why do the strings not pass so neatly on the guitar above?

I was once told it was to do with the nut spacing relative to the bridge. Can anyone explain in dumbass terms (for a simpleton like me) how that would work and if so, is there some kind of formula to it?

Is that because the nut is 41mm (1-5/8") rather than the 43mm (1-11/16") on mine?

On a 41mm nut, my fat sausage fingers wouldn't be able to play anything close to the nut (and I'm an eye surgeon  )

ICBM

impmann said:

Observe how the strings pass perfectly over the pole pieces for all pickups, yet it will have the vintage, wider string spacing.

Why do the strings not pass so neatly on the guitar above?

I was once told it was to do with the nut spacing relative to the bridge. Can anyone explain in dumbass terms (for a simpleton like me) how that would work and if so, is there some kind of formula to it?

It has to be either the bridge saddles or the pickups - any difference at the nut is too small to make any noticeable difference right down near the bridge.

To me, it looks like the modern saddles are slightly wider - they come closer to the edge of the bridgeplate, and the strings are slightly wider spaced than the pivot screws, which they aren't on the original.

OilCityPickups

ICBM said:

impmann said:

Observe how the strings pass perfectly over the pole pieces for all pickups, yet it will have the vintage, wider string spacing.

Why do the strings not pass so neatly on the guitar above?

I was once told it was to do with the nut spacing relative to the bridge. Can anyone explain in dumbass terms (for a simpleton like me) how that would work and if so, is there some kind of formula to it?

It has to be either the bridge saddles or the pickups - any difference at the nut is too small to make any noticeable difference right down near the bridge.

To me, it looks like the modern saddles are slightly wider - they come closer to the edge of the bridgeplate, and the strings are slightly wider spaced than the pivot screws, which they aren't on the original.

Pickup pole spacing hasn't changed ... I rewind dozens of vintage Strat pickups every year, and modern 52mm covers pop as neatly over 50s pickups as they do modern pickups.
 All Fender Strat pickups neck, middle and bridge are 52mm spaced, so the passage over the poles is dead right only on one out of three pickups ... which should be the middle pickup, so that with the neck pickup the strings pass slightly inside the centre of the poles ... with the middle they are bang on, and at the bridge they are fractionally outside. To my mind it has to be the bridge. 

jaymenon

Ash - I've sometimes wondered, if the spacing is 52 or 52.5mm - only because axesrus do covers at both 52 and 52.5mm

OilCityPickups

Ah ... that's humbuckers ... right the rule is this: 52.5 is 53mm ... except when it's 51.5 or 52mm ... 49.2 is vintage ... except when it's 48.4 (or 48.7) ... but that's only for jazz guitars ... or when it's 50mm and Japanese ... 
Rules ... what rules?