Do any of you guys build valve gear to order or just to sell ?

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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    eris said:
    May I throw this one into the fray, are any of you other pro techs/engineers a member of a professional body?
    The only "professional body" I've been a member of is the Biochemical Society!

    It's worth noting that most professional bodies and trade associations where formed to protect the interests (and incomes) of there members.
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  • I'm not a fan of the PAT testing course in isolation.  We have our H&S guys go on a single day course with no electrical experience undertaking the course then become the company expert on what's safe electrically.  I have a HND in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and 17th Edition design training from the IEE, but don’t have the authority to deem something safe and fit for purpose in the working environment.

    The PAT testing should really be reserved for somebody to be able to check basic safety of a product designed by an experienced and qualified engineer, not to check something they have designed themselves.
    It is possible to have something test perfectly when it’s completed, but if it is designed poorly, failure could still result in a dangerous scenario a PAT tester could not foresee.  PAT testing in addition to the relevant qualifications / experience is another matter.

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  • jpfamps said:
    eris said:
    May I throw this one into the fray, are any of you other pro techs/engineers a member of a professional body?
    The only "professional body" I've been a member of is the Biochemical Society!

    It's worth noting that most professional bodies and trade associations where formed to protect the interests (and incomes) of there members.
    Who is eris?

    I appreciate that these organisations are businesses, just like educational and training companies.  I remember explaining how electricity works to a gentlemen with an engineering degree. This included why fuses burn out, thermal runaway, and why having an earth can be useful.
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  • I'm not a fan of the PAT testing course in isolation.  We have our H&S guys go on a single day course with no electrical experience undertaking the course then become the company expert on what's safe electrically.  I have a HND in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and 17th Edition design training from the IEE, but don’t have the authority to deem something safe and fit for purpose in the working environment.

    The PAT testing should really be reserved for somebody to be able to check basic safety of a product designed by an experienced and qualified engineer, not to check something they have designed themselves.
    It is possible to have something test perfectly when it’s completed, but if it is designed poorly, failure could still result in a dangerous scenario a PAT tester could not foresee.  PAT testing in addition to the relevant qualifications / experience is another matter.

    GRRRRRRR.  Isn't PAT testing, testing to see if someone is competent to carry out Portable Appliance Testing?
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723

    I'm not a fan of the PAT testing course in isolation.  We have our H&S guys go on a single day course with no electrical experience undertaking the course then become the company expert on what's safe electrically.  I have a HND in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and 17th Edition design training from the IEE, but don’t have the authority to deem something safe and fit for purpose in the working environment.

    The PAT testing should really be reserved for somebody to be able to check basic safety of a product designed by an experienced and qualified engineer, not to check something they have designed themselves.
    It is possible to have something test perfectly when it’s completed, but if it is designed poorly, failure could still result in a dangerous scenario a PAT tester could not foresee.  PAT testing in addition to the relevant qualifications / experience is another matter.

    GRRRRRRR.  Isn't PAT testing, testing to see if someone is competent to carry out Portable Appliance Testing?
    It sounds like it is.

    You will notice I have avoided that tautology.


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  • MaxiMaxi Frets: 13
    edited November 2013
    martinw said:
    Maxi said:
     What paper work needs to be in order and when would you feel qualified enough not to endanger the general public ?

    I can't say I'm in favour of those without professional experience and qualifications selling mains powered electronic equipment to the public. It's about competence rather than regulations and paperwork, and broader knowledge than you'll get from simply assembling a few kits.

    I feel qualified enough because I'm a time-served engineer, with an HNC, and 30+ years in engineering, 20 years of that in electronics and manufacturing. Still learning though!

    Feel the same way Martin.
    Every job going will favor experience . 
    I have some in the industrial sense , (onboard marine electrical.  ). No designing No domestic certainly no innovation or creative licence and no consumer legal considerations etc . 
    In a way Im glad there is a free market but also surprised how " up to me " it is to decide when im ready to distribute my work .


    Flown the nest .
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  • martinwmartinw Frets: 2149
    tFB Trader
    jpfamps said:
       Again, I know of one amp builder who has ceased production as the consequence of a Trading Standards investigation (which in my view was probably malicious in nature).
    Interesting, if slightly disturbing! Are we allowed to know more?
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    martinw said:
    jpfamps said:
       Again, I know of one amp builder who has ceased production as the consequence of a Trading Standards investigation (which in my view was probably malicious in nature).
    Interesting, if slightly disturbing! Are we allowed to know more?
    Probably not the correct forum to discuss this.


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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357

    Interesting points in this thread. I expect there's many people in the field of valve amp design and building who didn't necessary do any normal electronics qualification with the purpose of building valve amps, but got into it from a genuine interest. Many probably musicians I would have thought. By the time I was on my HNC in my early twenties I had been repairing TV's, videos and designing SS amps since I was a teenager purely because I loved the subject. I really struggled with a lot of the math, some of it seemed unnecessarily complex in terms of how the equations were laid out. Especially as we had Electronics workbench software running on DOS which could work it out for us with a few clicks :)

    In terms of danger I think as long as you know what each and every component does and you have a solid understanding of circuit design you shouldn't have any problems. Oddly enough the biggest dangers I've seen over the years were the results of low voltage \ very high current mistakes, such as people repairing mobility scooters with twin & earth house ring main or wiring car radios up with lamp wire. Mistakes like these cause fires rather than blow fuses. 


     
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • MistergMisterg Frets: 293
    I've flirted with this for non-musical stuff: I think the need for sound construction practices and basic electrical safety are givens.

    The big bug-bear for me is that most electronics must be CE marked to sell them. You *can* self certify, and nobody will give a stuff until something goes wrong (or someone decides to cause trouble). You can even just whack on a CE label and keep your fingers crossed.

    Even to get the text of the standards that you need to comply with will cost you hundreds, if not thousands of pounds. (Things like what format the 'rating plate' needs to be, the fact that you need to supply an instruction manual and what it should contain, or that you mustn't be able to access the valves without a screwdriver, etc.. etc.. I hate to think what Trading Standards would make of cloth covered wire, or 'Vintage' paper interleaved transformers!)

    If EMC testing is required, it is ridiculously expensive for 'one of a kind' or  small volume stuff, but you could arguably build a case that you didn't need to test something like a valve amp.

    As a lot of cheap electronics shows, the CE mark is not related to quality - if it's got a CE mark, however badly built, then you can sell it. If it hasn't got a CE mark, no matter how well built, it is an offence to 'place it on the market'.

    My saving grace was that the stuff I supplied was mostly to other manufacturers for incorporation into something bigger, so I left the CE marking stuff to them! :)

    Of course, there's also RoHS, so no leaded solder or vintage Allen Bradley carbon comp resistors I guess....

    And WEEE... (no exemption for small volume manufacturers....)



    Your little ray of sunshine! :)
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    Misterg said:
    I've flirted with this for non-musical stuff: I think the need for sound construction practices and basic electrical safety are givens.

    The big bug-bear for me is that most electronics must be CE marked to sell them. You *can* self certify, and nobody will give a stuff until something goes wrong (or someone decides to cause trouble). You can even just whack on a CE label and keep your fingers crossed.

    Even to get the text of the standards that you need to comply with will cost you hundreds, if not thousands of pounds. (Things like what format the 'rating plate' needs to be, the fact that you need to supply an instruction manual and what it should contain, or that you mustn't be able to access the valves without a screwdriver, etc.. etc.. I hate to think what Trading Standards would make of cloth covered wire, or 'Vintage' paper interleaved transformers!)

    If EMC testing is required, it is ridiculously expensive for 'one of a kind' or  small volume stuff, but you could arguably build a case that you didn't need to test something like a valve amp.

    As a lot of cheap electronics shows, the CE mark is not related to quality - if it's got a CE mark, however badly built, then you can sell it. If it hasn't got a CE mark, no matter how well built, it is an offence to 'place it on the market'.

    My saving grace was that the stuff I supplied was mostly to other manufacturers for incorporation into something bigger, so I left the CE marking stuff to them! :)

    Of course, there's also RoHS, so no leaded solder or vintage Allen Bradley carbon comp resistors I guess....

    And WEEE... (no exemption for small volume manufacturers....)



    Your little ray of sunshine! :)
    The last time I looked the cost of the EU low voltage documentation was about £285 + VAT.

    You don't have to submit anything for EMC testing, however you do need to provide a good case why you don't need to test it.

    It would be difficult, in my opinion, to find an electronic device with less EMC issues than a valve guitar amp: linear power supply and very limited bandwidth.

    As with CE marking, there are numerous examples of devices built using the same construction methods on the market. We are talking about mature technology here.

    Bradley Allen resistors will not be RoHS compliant even if they have no hazardous substances in them unless they have the relevant paperwork to show that they have been tested and are RoHS compliant.

    The same is true of any NOS component, eg NOS geranium transistors.

    Transformers wound with paper interleaving are fine if constructed correctly. In fact one of the transformer companies we use prefer using paper insulation as the rough surface of the paper makes the winding easier and reduces the chances of tracking (this company used to make Partridge transformers for Hiwatt and have wound transformers for CERN).

    In my experience transformer companies are very much on top of the regs.

    Incidentally, Fender still use transformers with paper insulation.

    Are yes WEEE.

    These regs make the manufacturer responsible for the disposal of the product.

    Guitar amps are very unusual for consumer electronics for their longevity. Other than amps I've built the "newest" amp I own was made in 1969.

    I suspect there aren't many people using a 40 year old TV (405 line anyone, or is that too late)

    The amps we have built will outlast me, however, if anyone who has bought an amp from us wants to return it for "recyling", then pack it up and I'll arrange a courier to collect it.

    The greatest irony would be if a company was put out of business for not comply to WEEE, thus of course ensuring that the company that made the product could be responsible for its disposal.






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  • imaloneimalone Frets: 748
    As I understand the RoHS stuff (and I don't do this for a living, so could be entirely wrong), it's a requirement for CE and like CE you actually need to document and make the statement about the final product. Having RoHS certified components going in makes that process easier (rather than impossible), but you still need the write up.
    The big manufacturers all seem to be into some WEEE scheme to absolve them of all responsibility (instead giving you a link to your local council website which may show somewhere within a 20 mile radius that still doesn't accept anything larger than a hairdrier... I digress), but don't know if that's an option for small operations (and I imagine expensive at the lower end). Like JPF says, longevity of guitar amps is pretty good.
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  • drwiddlydrwiddly Frets: 911
    I love the idea of a 'geranium' transistor - thanks jpfamps!
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    drwiddly said:
    I love the idea of a 'geranium' transistor - thanks jpfamps!
    Someone was paying attention!
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1589
    jpfamps said:
    drwiddly said:
    I love the idea of a 'geranium' transistor - thanks jpfamps!
    Someone was paying attention!
    Yes, well. Compared to the Silicon devices that came after them, they were about as useful as a bloody flower!

    Dave.
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  • Weren't the Russians using germanium transistors in everything for a very long time after the technology was superseded in the west.  I believe they were used in most of the space race electronics, and in consumer level electronics way after that.

    I am hearing echoes of "flowers in space" to the old "Lost in Space" ident.  Surprised they could grow them with that climate  
    ;)

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    ecc83 said:
    jpfamps said:
    drwiddly said:
    I love the idea of a 'geranium' transistor - thanks jpfamps!
    Someone was paying attention!
    Yes, well. Compared to the Silicon devices that came after them, they were about as useful as a bloody flower!
    Truly, but they have a uniquely crap sound which makes them desirable to guitarists!

    Kind of like valves, really... ;)


    I spotted it too but I didn't say anything!

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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