Is old stuff better?

ToneControl

 

Lots of  conversations about "how does xyz boutique Pro brand Les Paul type or strat type or acoustic dreadnaught compare with the 1920, 1959, 1962 model?"

Mostly the new one will be better as far as I can tell. There's a few nice guitars surviving from back then, but I think Darwinian selection and wood-burners have improved the observable quality a lot.

Basically I reject the philosophy that there was some golden age of manufacturing anything, and that humans are now too stupid and unskilled to match stuff made then. Clearly the advances in every science and craft subject mean that we certainly should make everything better, given equivalent cash and resources.

 

From what I have learned and observed, there are loads of makers of amazing acoustics who use techniques unknown to the makers of the old guitars from way back. You don't see many in normal shops, but go to Ivor Mairants or the acoustic music co in Brighton

The best amps built today as good or better than all old ones I have owned/tried. They are a few gems from the past, but most old amps are nothing special

 

Also, most conversations about modellers centre on "are they as good as a real amp?"

In fact, there is nothing to stop them being better than a real amp: there is little chance that in 20 years that there will be many amps that top modellers cannot emulate much more accurately than at present, but of course they can also model amps that cannot be built.

Take it a couple of product generations, and the modellers should have evolved features that players think sound/feel attractive that have never been possible using valves

All makes me very optimistic

 

 

bertie

I think off topic was better in the old days, 

ToneControl

well I can remember when nostalgia was better than it is now, people don't do it properly any more

monquixote

Moved to Guitars. 

ThePrettyDamned

I agree with you in a huge way.  

A lot of people spend too much time emulating the sounds of past eras when there is plenty to look forward to.  Solid state amps have had a few developments - the Orange Crush Pro and the AMT Stonehead are both made to sound amazing, not to just be as cheap as possible.  I hope this signals the start of a new era, but I think modelling is more likely to take that crown.

I don't think massive R+D would necessarily be needed for a boutique solid state or hybrid amp either - just combine the efforts of, for example, Catalinbread and an amp manufacturer. Catalinbread pedals seem to be voiced in a way that's closer to preamp than pedal - so they have done a lot of the hard work.  AMT have excellent preamps, but only low power power amps.  If they released a power amp modeller (because the power section is hugely important in high gain amps), they'd be onto a winner.  The 6505/5150 pre they do is indistinguishable from the real thing when put into the same power amp. 

Modelling is amazing - my old vox AD100vt was reliable, loud and sounded great.  My old band mate had a 100 watt Ashton half stack that was shrill, metallic, cold and harsh sounding compared with the warmth of the Vox (both used for high gain metal).  The yamaha THR range sound amazing for practice.  The Kemper is, for me, the biggest leap forward in modelling.  One day, it might be the standard 'go-to' for guitarists.  

Boss are probably my favourite pedal company of all time, because they are constantly innovating. The Tera Echo is totally unique, the adaptive distortion is a very modern, low - to - high gain pedal (how many pedals are low to high gain?!) and the Dyna drive, which was made in conjunction with Roland, and is the most responsive OD I've ever heard, while still retaining some of your amps original tone.  Very few people even consider trying them, though, in favour of reissues of distortions and boutique offerings that are tweaked designs.  

Modern guitar design doesn't mean modern looking - Vanquish are modern looking, but Organic and Rees certainly are not, but they are still unique.  They often offer great value for money, too, compared with the USA big boys (brand new prices, of course).  I think people are starting to take real notice of home-grown guitars, though, which is excellent.  Pickup makers, such as Oil City, are really starting to not only clone vintage pickups and tweak designs, but come up with their own designs to offer any sound we want.  

WezV

I don't disagree with anything you are saying, there is no reason things can't be built better than they were in the old days.   They are certainly built more consistently

but finding top quality materials to build them from is much harder, finding them at the right price even harder still

daveww

Agree with all the above and OP.  Only thing I would say though is I do think that due to age, wood drying out etc. a lot, but by no means all, 30 plus year old guitars sound great.  I think the wood of influences the sound more than many people think.  The pups etc. do as well but the wood has a lot to do with it.

Modelling I agree is fantastic.  Having owned the dream rig , DT 23, HR500 and JTV I can state it's amazing but not quite there yet IMHO.  I do think it's going to get there though.  Maybe it already is with the Kemper but I've never played one so can't comment.

ToneControl

I thought the ideas about old instruments improved was because the wood had learned to resonate better with regular use. Probably much less noticeable with solid body electrics that acoustics. The wood can't dry out more, it's all kiln treated or aged first, the water content just varies up and down with your local weather in your house/car/loft/cellar

this gadget is supposed to do this: http://tonerite.com/

I know someone who has one and used it on £5k+ acoustics, successfully he believes to "open the tone"

 

 

Not commonly discussed, but I have read that unlike violins, which last for 100s of years, acoustics die eventually, apparently after 30-40 years they start to sound worse rather than better. Does anyone know more about this?

ToneControl

oh, and when people want a copy of a 1950s guitar, I am always curious to whether they want it to sound like it sounded the year it was built (which is what I would want, and shiny new looking please), or with faded magnets, and simulated wear and tear etc.

From my perspective, if I bought a replica E type Jag, I would not want it to have a knackered paint job and simulated 250,000 mile wear on the cylinders, pistons and valves. In fact I'd want ABS and a few other modern things added on

octatonic

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

ToneControl

octatonic said:

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

It still costs a lot though

OilCityPickups

I'm a firm believer that good guitars tend to survive ... crap ones get trashed ... hence old stuff is better purely by the filtering effect of time.
Many old ... particularly alnico 5 ... sound better than their modern equivalent largely because of partial degaussing of their magnets 'smoothing' the tone. Degauss a modern magnet and it will sound similar.
 
However I've never heard a modelling amp that sounds, but more importantly feels in it's attack envolope anything but total shit. Worse in fact than good 70s transistor amp like an HH.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            

octatonic

ToneControl said:

Not commonly discussed, but I have read that unlike violins, which last for 100s of years, acoustics die eventually, apparently after 30-40 years they start to sound worse rather than better. Does anyone know more about this?

Not in my experience.

I've played a few 19th Century guitars that were amazingly toneful.

What does 'die tonally' mean though?

Tone is so subjective and one mans cup of char is another's Piers Morgan.

A warm guitar to me might be dull to you etc, and vice versa.

Certainly old guitars change but there is no way to quantify what tonal death is- if the guitar is fully functional (which can be an issue with an old guitar- tops move, braces slip etc) then it will probably be fine.

Old guitars usually have maintenance/neglect issues, rather than having suffered tonal death.

The restoration and conservation of guitars is a entire field of study and work for some folk.

dindude

I agree with the OP pretty much.

Just a few thoughts on the subject:

A lot is nostalgia, that's the only way to explain that people are getting interested in Korean guitars now, before it was Japanese, then post "golden age" USA etc, and on it will go.

I do think that a lot of effort was put into some products in the olden days, as there was an expectation that it would be bought and give a lifetimes service, not just guitars but all items. Today the bottom and middle market is disposible, the high end market (for guitars and amps) has the attention to detail that was probably more common in the mainstream back in the 50's and 60's, maybe!

And finally, modelling, for me, is the biggest disappointment in guitar development, I had one of the first gen Vox valvetronix things and it was a revelation at the time, I've owned many modelling amps since and they've just got cheaper, more flimsy, and the quality of sound hasn't really moved on. I would have expected leaps by now.

I've heard an axe fx being put through its paces, it was better, but still sounded a long way off for most things, and this is where line 6 should be by now, not some £3k exotica.

dogload

octatonic said:

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

Eeeee! I can still remember the first time I heard that...

daveww

ToneControl said:

I thought the ideas about old instruments improved was because the wood had learned to resonate better with regular use. Probably much less noticeable with solid body electrics that acoustics. The wood can't dry out more, it's all kiln treated or aged first, the water content just varies up and down with your local weather in your house/car/loft/cellar

this gadget is supposed to do this: http://tonerite.com/

I know someone who has one and used it on £5k+ acoustics, successfully he believes to "open the tone"

You may well be right I don't know why they sound better but I've owned quite a few and played quite a few I've never owned but they seem to.  I don't have the same level of experience with old acoustics so can't comment.  The best sounding guitar I ever owned was a c1980 Les Paul Navigator.  Supposedly built by one man start to finish.  Wasn't actually a 50s replica it had  a large Norlin era headstock a neck volute and a slightly unusual neck to body joint. I pups in that guitar I didn't like in others and it sounded great.  Wasn't even top of the range.  Alchemy? Wood? not sure...

impmann

There is a lot of big business tied up in perpetuating this idea that old is better - that way they can sell you reissues of the old stuff you can't afford.

Reissuing the past is much cheaper than being inventive about new designs.

It's also massively fashionable to say in interviews that you have used this or that vintage equipment to record an album. How many times have you read a-n-other metal band talk about hiring in vintage amps or guitars for 'colour' in Guitarist etc and you listen to the album and it sounds worse than their breakthrough album that was recorded on one guitar (that probably wasn't that expensive) and one modern amp...

However I would say that the *design* of the older guitars such as 50s/60s electrics take some beating. It's just the bullshit regarding them I find impossible to stomach. And I still can't fathom this concept that all old guitars are better because they are now old. Obviously there are exceptions but late 70s Fenders are the reason the vintage market started springing up and that Tokai etc started doing so well.

Modelling - well, it gets closer all the time and some of it sounds a shed-load better than some of the cheap valve amps I've had the mispleasure of playing through - valve bee anyone? Nope, me neither.

There are some truly fabulous valve amps out there built in the last 10 years. The Artisan 15 and 30 from Blackstar are great examples of this and I *still* GAS heavily for another 30 but no cash!!

I'd say that the custom shops at fender and Gibson are turning out guitars that are at least the equal if not better than a well worn old example. People get hung up on vintage correctness in terms of wood etc but the fact remains these are exceptional guitars.

Final point in this ramble. If Hendrix had lived, do you think he'd still be playing a 1969/70 Strat into a Marshall with a fuzz face in the front end? I don't for one minute.

wordy

ToneControl said:

Not commonly discussed, but I have read that unlike violins, which last for 100s of years, acoustics die eventually, apparently after 30-40 years they start to sound worse rather than better. Does anyone know more about this?

I read a quote, I think from James Taylor that said something similar - like for him they had a shelf life, after which they'd start to deteriorate.

monquixote

I think it all stems from the period in the 70's and 80's where it was hard to find decent quality guitars from most of the big boys so people had to turn to the very limited supply of older guitars.

Since the era of PRS, Fender and Gibson Custom Shop, Suhr, Anderton, etc if you have the money then guitars as good as anything ever made are more easily available than ever. 

As far as things getting better with age a chap I know did some research for Cambridge Uni on this subject and determined that instruments where the wood was under tension like a violin, or an archtop would improve with age, but there was no reason he could determine why the same should be true of a solid body guitar. 

jd0272

I've a new guitar made very recently and it's the best thing I've ever played. Because of how it's made and what it's made from. It's in the shape if a late 50's guitar, and in the colour. I'd imagine if it were the shape of a star and painted 1970's Ford large metal flake purple, it would sound as just as good.

My amp is a recent 30 watt valve head. It can give me, in a pub environment, what a classic 60's/70's amp can't.

And there are countless accounts of the Holy Grail late 50's Les Paul's where it's conceded some of them are dogs. Commanding prices of £80k upwards.

I'd tip my hat to quality rather than age.

thomasw88

A. Few years ago I was in that music shop in bristol which is full of old guitars and amps etc. can't remember the name of it. The guy showed me a very early strat. Thing I noticed was that it was so light it was unbelievable. Certainly didn't seem as well made as any of the more recent fenders anyways.