Keyboard advice needed

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CorvusCorvus Frets: 2924

My 16 year old wants a keyboard to learn on, budget around 100 squid. He and I don't know what to look for at all... He plays guitar so has amps, will have an audio interface after Xmas, so the kbd should be able to talk to that. Some seem to have a USB out and others a headphone/stereo out - that should feed a guitar amp?

They all look the bloody same to me! :) Seem to be zillions of Casio models which I can't hardly see much difference in, but we've no idea what makes are good/bad or if there's much difference anyway at the cheapie end.... any wise words are welcome!

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  • NomadNomad Frets: 549
    edited November 2015

    Can't recommend any particular models, but I would suggest trying to work out what features are needed, or at least more likely to be used/wanted, before buying something, and that means some research. Keyboards come in all sorts of configurations, not least because the makers compete with each other by adding more and more features (started with organs, then organs with more sounds, organs with non-organ sounds, organs with rhythm gizmos, with 'band' auto-accompaniment, auto-comp with fills and fancy bits, with on-board effects, with sequencers, etc, etc, and still it goes on).

    I would suggest focussing on something that has a good feeling keyboard and some good representations of instruments that he's interested in. Some boards feel spongy and springy, and aren't very nice to play. I'd also recommend full size keys - with mini keyboards, you can get big stretches of well over an octave, but they can feel cramped and are ultimately compromised in terms of playability. Note that some instruments tend not to feel right with the typical keys on these instruments - piano really needs weighted keys to feel like you're playing a piano. There will be other instruments that are similarly affected (eg, various electric pianos, harpsichord). Organ and synthesiser sounds should feel okay because their keys have a similar action, and the various non-keyboard sounds should be fine because they don't have a keyboard-based reference (strings, brass, choirs, etc). Some instruments also benefit from touch sensitivity, some can be enhanced with it (once the player's feel develops), and some don't need it. Piano needs it, strings, choirs can benefit from it, and real organs don't have it.

    For learning, a decent number of octaves is good because it encourages use of both hands. For reference, a piano is 88 keys - just over 7 octaves, a 61-key board (5 octaves) is about the minimum in my view. Any less than that, and you start to run out of range for playing bass notes or chords on the left and having space to wander around playing melodies on the right. Most keyboards can be split, such that some of the left is set an octave lower and/or plays a different instrument, for example, but I've always found with these that I either run out of higher notes for the left, or lower notes for the right. The split position can usually be selected, so the hassle can be minimised, but I've never really liked it. (Splitting can work if you know what you want - a specific setup for a particular piece where you know the range required from each half of the split, but I think they get in the way when you're diddling about and getting the hang of things.) A 76-key board (6 octaves) is pretty good - plenty of range to have bass frequencies at the left and still go up high on the right, but I'm not sure there are many cheaper do-it-all type generic keyboards that have that many keys.

    So far as I know, the USB ports on them tend to fulfil one or both of two functions - the computer can see it as an audio interface where the keyboard sounds can be recorded, and it can appear as a MIDI port, meaning it can send MIDI data to the computer which, with suitable software, can then be used to trigger a whole range of new sounds via the computer. If I were to choose one over the other, it would hands-down be MIDI. There are plenty of free/cheap virtual MIDI instruments to be had and they really extend the usefulness of the keyboard. Some can be used standalone, and some need to be used in conjunction with a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation). A keyboard that makes its own sounds should also be able to receive MIDI data from the computer (from a sequence programmed into the DAW). (Keyboards that don't make their own sounds - only do MIDI - are called MIDI controller keyboards, and need a separate MIDI sound source to be usable.)

    Virtually all keyboards for home use that make their own sounds will have built in speakers. They might not be the greatest, but are usually decent enough for home use. There's a good chance that they'll sound better than plugging into a guitar amp, although a modelling amp that has an MP3 input might do quite well if it has a 'hi-fi' type speaker setup. Guitar speakers have limited frequency range, and conventional guitar amps have tone controls that are voiced for guitar, and they don't really work well with keyboards. Plugging into a home stereo system is an option, but it's important to be careful with the volume - the bass signal especially can be too much for the speakers.

    Going back to what I said at the start, the advantage - and downside to an extent - with modern keyboards is that they're all-singing, all-dancing. When someone says they want to get into keyboards, it immediately begs the question of what particular aspect(s) they want to explore. A traditional acoustic piano is a keyboard. It does one keyboard thing very well, and simply isn't capable of doing all of the other keyboard things that one might think of. The more of the typical modern keyboard features you add for a given budget, the bigger the chance of the quality of the features being compromised.

    The range of features and the extent to which the compromises are acceptable isn't something that's easy to define. It depends very much on what the player wants from the instrument, and it can be hard to work that out when the player doesn't know much about them. 'Keyboard' is a very big word that includes all sorts of stuff that might not have been considered (or even known about), and a lot of that is there because the makers are competing with each other by cramming in more and more features in the hope that punters will think more features equals better.

    On the one hand, it could be argued that a new player kind of needs to start with an all-singing, all-dancing box of compromises, if only for the purpose of finding out about the various features that modern keyboards have to offer. My first keyboard was a Yamaha PSS-780 (bought used in 1995). The speakers were okay, some of the sounds were okay, it had MIDI which was vital, the auto-band-accompaniment was handy, and the 61 keys was okay. The mini keys were cramped and lifeless, the drum pads were a waste of time, the sequencer wasn't much better, and most of the sounds were pretty crap. It did help me learn about keyboards and it was hooked into my first copy of Cakewalk (a MIDI sequencer back then rather than a proper DAW) almost immediately, and that really opened things up for me.

    If he does turn out to have an on-going interest in playing keyboards, the chances are that the first instrument will run out of steam sooner or later. The compromises in the features that he actually uses will become apparent, and kit that does those things better, possibly with less of the features that don't get used, will end up being bought, often for rather a lot more cost.

    On the other hand, if the player does have some idea of what sort of sounds or features he's interested in, it is well worth considering focussing on something that specialises in that direction. If you want to play piano on the cheap, get a budget digital piano (with a weighted board). If you want to play organ, get a keyboard with a wide range of organ sounds. If you want to plug into the computer and use a DAW and virtual instruments, get a MIDI controller keyboard. If you're going to plug into the computer at all, MIDI is basically essential - with that, you can do whatever the keyboard itself offers as a standalone unit, plus whatever the computer can do on top, resulting in something that has the scope to be extremely versatile.

    Nomad
    Nobody loves me but my mother... and she could be jivin' too...

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  • CorvusCorvus Frets: 2924
    edited November 2015 tFB Trader
    Thanks a million for taking the time to write that, much appreciated and great info - absolute gold dust to us, if I could double Wis I would :).
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  • NomadNomad Frets: 549
    edited November 2015

    You're welcome Bill. Keyboards really are a minefield because what they encompass is so vast - probably more than any other instrument. It might be worth sitting down with your lad and trying to work out what it is that attracts him to keyboards. For example, particular pieces of music might have led to the idea, and there could be clues from that in what sounds he wants to experiment with. Or maybe there are some keyboard players that he likes (or bands featuring keyboards) - check out the sounds that they use. Ditto people that compose on the computer with keyboard used as one of the main input tools.

    I think my main point is that starter keyboards are like starter guitar sets (complete with amplifier, lead, strap and plectrum!!!). They're very much a compromise and really only serve as a means for a first-timer to get some hands-on experience. If he does have clearer ideas about what he'd like to try with keyboards, the starter ones are possibly better avoided. My emphasis on MIDI is partly because you mentioned the audio interface - if a computer is involved, then MIDI is almost a de-facto requirement. (It can also be used with other kit - doesn't need to be a computer - can trigger sounds in other keyboards, external sound modules, etc.)


    Nomad
    Nobody loves me but my mother... and she could be jivin' too...

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  • CorvusCorvus Frets: 2924
    tFB Trader

    Thanks Nomad, it does seem a minefield but I'm certainly feeling better-armed - it was bewildering at first but I can see some differences now and that we'll have to up the budget a bit. I'm of the mind that starting out on too-crap an instrument puts many people off, and he plays a mean guitar so he'll probably feel limitations in a physically-poor keyboard that bit sooner.

    MIDI is a very good point. He's doing music tech and will be far more clued up that me about using a DAW and virtual instruments. I think the dog is more clued up than me actually... That side will more than likely be very useful to him.

    We'll head into town tomorrow and see what we can try, and start homing in on feel & features and narrow things down a bit.

    Cheers again.

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  • NomadNomad Frets: 549

    Had a cursory look around the web site of a shop local to me, and the Yamaha PSR-E353 looked to be the cheapest one with MIDI at £149, and can be found elsewhere for about £130 (or £149 from Gear4Music with headphones, stand and stool, which could be a good deal if the extras cost substantially more than £20 separately).

    It looks better than the basic entry level keyboards - lots of voices, good selection of rhythms, etc. I dare say the quality of the voices is better these days than what was available from a cheapie in the mid-90s, so it could be worth looking at if an all-singing type of keyboard is what's under consideration. Certainly try to check out some demos of the sounds if they're out there. Can't speak for the feel of the keyboard, of course, but I'd be having a play with it if I was in the market for something like that. Don't get excited about the dedicated 'Grand Piano' button - pointless fluff on something with a non-weighted board, and the piano simulation at this price range won't be up to much (the basic note samples will be decent, but the dynamic and harmonic subtleties of a real piano won't be there).

    Worth doing some online searching (applies to any candidate keyboard) to check out the MIDI implementation. The cheap ones can miss out MIDI features that would be considered normal. Things like only being able to use one MIDI channel (normally assignable to any of 16 channels), and I seem to remember cheaper Casio digital pianos could only receive MIDI but not send it (so no use as a controller keyboard).

    Nomad
    Nobody loves me but my mother... and she could be jivin' too...

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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    Regardless of which instrument it's usually the case that a beginner won't go far wrong with a Yamaha. 
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    Yamaha beats Casio, easily.
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  • CorvusCorvus Frets: 2924
    tFB Trader

    That's good Nomad - we'd come across the Yam 353 too and had that as favourite, reckon that looks just the job. Round here chances of playing different ones is very limited but that looks ideal. Certainly enough of a tool to get started playing and experimenting. I didn't look too hard at the MIDI side but he mainly wants to start playing keys, with no firm DAW or virtual instrument aims as yet.

    Thanks for your help, I owe you a beer :). And cheers Monq & Sassafras.

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  • Winny_PoohWinny_Pooh Frets: 7732
    edited November 2015
    The main question is whether he wants to play "piano" or synth. The keys world is split along those lines for the most part and the quality products do not dabble in their other respective worlds. Take a Yamaha P35 vs a microkorg... total opposite goals. Ask your son what he wants to do, it is electronic or poppy or a piano substitute? then report back.
    Do not buy the newest Yamaha/casio/anything do it all with backing rythyms keyboard around £100 because they are very lame.
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  • CorvusCorvus Frets: 2924
    tFB Trader
    Cheers. We went for the Yam 353 yesterday, it seems to be about right for what he's after, or thinks he is at this stage. Praps that will change when he's further down the road, but at the moment it seems a good match without gambling too much ££s.
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  • NomadNomad Frets: 549
    edited December 2015

    Any update on the 353? I managed to track down a vid of the PSS-780 playing its built-in demo tune, and I have to say, the sounds were dire (worse than my recollection). The demos I found of the 353 eclipsed it.


    Nomad
    Nobody loves me but my mother... and she could be jivin' too...

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  • CorvusCorvus Frets: 2924
    tFB Trader

    It's arrived but it's for his Xmas so it'll be a while before we can set to with it. I know nothing at all about keys but I am looking forward to seeing what it can do. I'm waiting for a chance to do a sneaky try-out on the grounds of testing it..

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  • CorvusCorvus Frets: 2924
    edited January 2016 tFB Trader

    A quick update: the 353 is going down well. Even the built-in speakers sound alright for practise, not totally gutless like I thought they might be. Seem to be some nice sounds in there and some wacky ones, and goo dfeatures. I don't know a thing about keys but they do have some feel to them so it's at least a cut above the weightless things, all in all it's just the job for him I reckon. Thanks everyone and especially @Nomad.


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  • SargeSarge Frets: 2370
    I guarantee next Christmas, or birthday he'll be asking for a Jupiter or Nord :-)
    Be prepared, its a bloody minefield in keys world!
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  • CorvusCorvus Frets: 2924
    tFB Trader
    :) He's on his own now!
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