Is dominant seventh interval....

Frankieabbot

....the same as minor seventh? Like, I play g on third fret of string 6 and g on fifth fret on string 4....That's an octave. Then if I move finger on string 4 down a fret then interval is major seventh? Then if I move finger on string 4 down another fret......(to the third fret) then is it minor or dominant seventh interval?

octatonic

Dominant 7th interval isn't the correct use of those terms.

Dominant 7th is a chord type.

It is a major triad with a minor 7th added to it.

If you said 'dominant 7th interval' at jazz school people would giggle.

Two frets down from the octave is a minor 7th.

One fret down from the octave is the major 7th.

Frankieabbot

Got it. Thanks. So I can presume that if I went down a further fret on string 4 (to fret 2) it would be an interval of a sixth. If this is the case.....then I have broken through the glass fretboard!

octatonic

Well done.

Now the fun starts.

Yes, a major 6th.

Next one down is a minor 6th.

Without rushing you something else to know is that a 13th is the same as a 6th but an octave up.

An 11th is the same as a 4th but an octave up.

A 9th is the same as a 2nd but an octave up.

Read below once you've had a chance to digest it all.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

10th, 12th and 14th's are very uncommon- you can basically ignore them.

A 9th chord is a dominant chord with a 9th added to it.

So G7 is GBDF, G9 is GBDFA, G11 is GBDFAC, G13 is GBDFACE.

If you rearrange G13 you can see it as CDEFGAB, yes all the notes of C major.

It is common to omit the 11(the C) in a 13 chord to give it a bit more spread.

viz

One thing to add - Dominant 7th ONLY occurs on the Dominant chord. That is chord V. It is the only chord you can call a Dominant chord, because it's its name. Other chords such as I, ii, IV, vii, etc, have different names like submediant, supertonic, tonic, etc. (Albeit you can have temporary dominants elsewhere if they resolve up a 4th - they're called secondary dominants).

So anyway, the Dominant 7 chord has a minor 7th above a major triad. And the word dominant has nothing to do with the fact that the chord has a 7th. It's only to do with the fact that it is in the dominant position, the V position. If it had a 6, it would be called Dominant 6th.

Unless they are secondary dominants, other chords that have a minor 7th above a major triad CANNOT be called dominant 7, they should in theory (geddit) be called a 'tonic flat 7' or an A7 or something, unless they're resolving up a 4th. Justin uses a terms like 'functioning dominant', 'non-functioning dominant', for major triads with a minor 7th which are not on the dominant chord, but really, if it's not in a V position, even a temporary V, it can't possibly be a dominant. Y (and Pip's) MMV.

Cheers

octatonic

Sorry but not completely correct @viz.

There is a function of dominant chords called 'secondary dominant', which are any 'major triads with flat 7' chords that are not the V.

In an A7 D7 E7 blues the D7 is definitely a dominant chord, but it is a secondary dominant, rather than the V chord.

A secondary dominant is basically any dominant chord that doesn't resolve to the tonic.

viz

Yeah I mentioned secondary dominants, but I just didn't want to complicate things. But to be absolutely precise, a secondary dominant has to resolve to a temporary tonic. It doesn't resolve to the real tonic, but it has to behave like a V. That's why it's called a secondary Dominant, not a secondary submediant or something. It occurs only because the chord it's resolving to, whatever that is, and however fleetingly, is behaving like a tonic. So it must resolve up a fourth, no question.

In your example of blues in A - with the chords A7, D7 and E7, the D7 can't play a secondary dominant role, as it is either moving back to the A7, which is just a plagal cadence, or on to the E7, which is just up a tone obviously. It could only be a secondary dominant if the next chord were a G.

The A7 is tonic, but does play a secondary dominant role when it's preparing to shift to the D which stands temporarily as a tonic. It's very effective if you wait till the last beat before adding the 7 to the A, so A/A/A/A7/D - you can hear the dominant preparing D to stand as home for a bit.

And the E7 is the primary dominant of course.

If, between the D7 to E7, you were to insert a cheeky B or B7, that would be a secondary dominant to the E. You could even just play a D# note and it could imply a secondary dominant, coz the D# is the major 3rd of the B chord.

octatonic

viz said:

I know, that's what I said isn't it? Or tried to anyway! A secondary dominant resolves to a temporary tonic. Like in Bach. But it's only because that chord, whatever it is, is behavin like a tonic.

Kinda, but the emphasis of a 7th chord not being dominant might be confusing for someone new to harmony.

Apologies- wasn't having a go at you- just trying to keep things clear for ^^^^ Frankiebot.

viz

Oh absolutely yes, that's fine! I just wanted to be completely precise about why and what a secondary dominant is, and when you said it's any major triad with a flat 7 that doesn't resolve to the tonic, I needed to make sure we got it straight that it had to resolve up a 4th, not just to any old chord. Cheers! (I've made an adjustment to my original post to make it clearer (or should I say more accurate lol))

GuyBoden

Good stuff, I don't think we should mention diatonic deceptive cadences and nondiatonic deceptive cadences using the 7th chord, until later next week.

viz

Lol! Agreed. Sorry everyone .....

Phil_aka_Pip

Functional dominants (ie dominants that resolve) vs non-functional dominants (ie chords having the required form of a dominant but not resolving) anyone? I think we've had a debate on this before ...

frankus

viz said:

Lol! Agreed. Sorry everyone .....

GuyBoden

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Functional dominants (ie dominants that resolve) vs non-functional dominants (ie chords having the required form of a dominant but not resolving) anyone? I think we've had a debate on this before ...

From my teenage Classical Music Theory classes .

Authentic Cadence V to I (Resolving)
Deceptive cadence V to any of the others, but not the Tonic. (Not Resolving.)

viz

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Functional dominants (ie dominants that resolve) vs non-functional dominants (ie chords having the required form of a dominant but not resolving) anyone? I think we've had a debate on this before ...

Indeed, and a confession / apology: I actually hadn't understood the point before - I'd mistakenly thought Justin was making a distinction between V7 chords and other major triads with minor 7ths, such as IVb7 - calling the former a functional dominant and the latter a non-functional dominant. Didn't realise that the term was targeted to V chords only, and distinguishing between those that were part of a perfect cadence and those that weren't. 

I myself would still say it's functioning as a dominant because it's still in the dominant position - even if it's not taking part in a perfect cadence. But I do know what Justin means now! Thanks!

Frankieabbot

Nope.....I don't understand much from post 5 (viz) onwards. I do enjoy playing Johnny Cash songs so maybe I'm playing some of this theory without realising it. :-/

viz

It's difficult to write or read this stuff lol. I'm sure you are!

frankus

The problem with music theory is if you have a guitar teacher, they'll play you a song on their mp3 player to explain a concept and you'll get it immediately.

On a guitar forum it's even more straightforward. 8 people will provide different solutions, any person can refute or contradict an opponent but the word count of each competitor is taken and aggregated. It's worth noting that a picture is worth a thousand words which is multiplied by the number of lines of symmetry in the main structure at this point 10 points is awarded for each colour used.

Belieb!

viz

^ true

GuyBoden

frankus said:

The problem with music theory is if you have a guitar teacher, they'll play you a song on their mp3 player to explain a concept and you'll get it immediately.

Many players don't seem to realise that there are many Music theories; Western Classical, Modal (old), Modal (new), Serialism, etc the list goes on and on.

I see some players trying to apply Western Classical Music theories to analyse Pop and Rock music, this approach doesn't work a lot of the time and ends up with them being very frustrated...

Clarky

GuyBoden said:

frankus said:

The problem with music theory is if you have a guitar teacher, they'll play you a song on their mp3 player to explain a concept and you'll get it immediately.

Many players don't seem to realise that there are many Music theories; Western Classical, Modal (old), Modal (new), Serialism, etc the list goes on and on.

I see some players trying to apply Western Classical Music theories to analyse Pop and Rock music, this approach doesn't work a lot of the time and ends up with them being very frustrated...

I think a bigger problem is folk treating music theory as if it is absolute.. like a set of rules.. and then find that they're being confined by it.. kinda the tail wagging the dog type thing..

BTW folks: a secondary dominant is a dom7 chord with respect to any chord in a key other than chord I [because that is diatonic and often a perfect cadence too].. so for example, in the key of C, chord II = Dm, the secondary dominant would be A7 because A7 is what the dom7 chord is with respect to the Dm chord.. and likewise, the secondary dominant of chord VI in C [the chord of Am] would be E7 [because E7 is the dom7 in relation to Am].. the use of the secondary dominant can be two fold.. most obviously it will introduce notes from outside of the key to create richer harmonic content.. ie, E7 contains the note G# [which is outside of the key of C].. also, it can be used as a sort of 'springboard' to head off into a new key.. a cool tool for kicking off a modulation..