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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    Snap said:
    cool. Its fine on my monitors, but on a couple of other sources, I thought it was a bit "thick". Tbh I struggled with the pads, lot of low end, but wanted to keep some low down push as there is no real consistent bass line or kick.
    rather than try to do it all with one instrument, you can try duplicating the original strings / pad part
    then in one of them, strip out the bass notes
    in the other, strip everything but the bass notes

    the idea is that you have exactly the same instrument / tone / voice
    but you can handle the low stuff independently, level / eq / compression wise
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    cheers, that's a cool idea.

    I'l try that for sure. Obvious now you say it, but never would have thought of it!
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    the previous experimental piece DivaExperiment [on the previous page to this] I was trying to make my vocal performance sound like a female soprano... purely in the interests of science... lol..

    this piece take the same experiment a little further in the form of a full length trailer
    also.. I play with synths quite a lot more in this one


    play every note as if it were your first
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    This is very cool Clarky. The opening music has a slight nod to Jarre/John Carpenter. Interested how you get this soprano pitch - is that without FX? Involves a tight clenching grip?
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    Snap said:
    This is very cool Clarky. The opening music has a slight nod to Jarre/John Carpenter. Interested how you get this soprano pitch - is that without FX? Involves a tight clenching grip?
    thanks matey...
    the vocal is pitch and formant shifted so I'm not singing particularly high
    but it's not pitch shifted by an octave.. I sing the part in a different key so I'm not pitching up so far that it destroys the vocal..
    also, after much experimentation I found a singing technique that was reacting better to the pitch and formant shifting..
    it's not a way of singing that I'd do live cos it sounds a little bit odd - quite difficult to explain how I do this

    the next experiment I'll do in this area will involve trying to get that really fast and strong soprano's vibrato..
    I certainly cannot execute this technique at all..
    so it'll involve singing the 'source' vocal not only in a different key [to pitch up] but also at a lower tempo [to speed up]..
    the really difficult thing is trying to keep the final vocal sounding human...
    all that processing can really destroy the source.. and worse.. it can introduce some nasty artefacts..
    so I'm also guessing that I'll have to do a lit of 'cleaning' to the source audio with automation to ensure that there's no spurious crap in there for the processing to get hold of..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    it does sound good though to be honest. clever. I liike all this stuff - its like solving a puzzle. Vocals are an area I want to work on. i can sing, but its rusty and I have zero technique. As a kid I was part of a small touring choir, so I know (ish) what I shuold be doing, but its in the old dusty part of my brain.....the one that was originally unsullied by alcohol and other things, ha!

    I've done this btw, felt a need to play some organ....pmsl



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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    edited December 2017
    Snap said:
    it does sound good though to be honest. clever. I liike all this stuff - its like solving a puzzle. Vocals are an area I want to work on. i can sing, but its rusty and I have zero technique. As a kid I was part of a small touring choir, so I know (ish) what I shuold be doing, but its in the old dusty part of my brain.....the one that was originally unsullied by alcohol and other things, ha!

    I've done this btw, felt a need to play some organ....pmsl



    I know what you mean about the puzzle thing.. and yes I love goofing around trying to work out how to do things..
    and also experimenting for the sake of it.. just trying new things..

    singing is like anything else.. you just have to do lots of it to get better..
    you don't have to be blessed with great tone.. so long as you are in tune and phrase well, you can get away with quite a bit..
    and try not to be self conscious - which most folks are when they start singing..

    I really like this new piece.. very interesting atmospherics..
    and your drum parts are getting much better.. not just production but also the performance itself..

    here's a thought.. many of your pieces are 'evolving'..
    starts with an idea, and then as they progress, you can hear layers being added one by one..
    there's nothing wrong in this at all.. 
    my main thought though with pieces of this nature is that they tend to start small and gradually grow..
    what they miss from a compositional standpoint is contrast...
    contrast and structure are powerful compositional tools..

    experiment for ya should you choose to accept it..
    create a piece as usual..
    then find an appropriate moment [or two] within it..
    make a cut and insert 16 or 32 bars.. and fill it with contrasting material..
    can be of similar vibes but with new themes... or very different..
    then bring it back into the original piece but a bigger and more developed version of it..

    for example: the piece I posted on page 5 of this thread called Your Future is Ours
    Structure wise you can hear how it takes shape..
    starts same and goes to a climax.. cuts back with a contrast.. then relaunches to finish with an even bigger climax..
    compositional 'tricks' using structure..
    it has an intro for the first 38s that set out the main themes
    from 38s the main themes kick off
    at 1:40 the mood changes to something darker and more brooding.. but it is still using re-worked variations of the main theme..
    essentially.. same ol' stuff in a contrasting setting [which helps dovetail the material - whereas all completely fresh material all the time can make a piece lose coherence and sound blocky.. like it's been made from musical lego.. lol..]
    from 2:12 we're back into the main theme but bigger and more developed that works toward the final climax...

    play every note as if it were your first
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    edited December 2017
    Thanks Clarky, really appreciate this feedback, dead good. Most of my stuff is done in single takes, mainly because of lack of time. For isntance, this last piece took me about 2 hours, start to finish, over maybe 3 sessions. That means, frustratingly I don't give myself enough time to compose them "properly", but maybe I should find myself the time! Rather than getting a sketch down, and then wrapping it up quickly. You are right though - most of my stuff is essentially an evolving riff. The challenge then is making the evolution interesting, a challenge I often fall short on!

    One of the best tracks of this type IMO is Peacock Tail, by Boards of Canada - give it a listen, so cool. Great band too. One of my favourites, influence me a lot.



    So, your idea is great - I reckon I will try it out on this latest piece, break it up as you suggest and put in more contrast. I'm thinking possibly at least one section that is some sort of dreamy piano, or guitar. Then I could push it up another level at the end, perhaps after what is the end now. Hmmm....got me thinking now..!

    The idea for this track was inspired by the Interstellar OST, got me wanting to get some sort of space vibe with church style organs going on..

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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    @Snap I know what you mean about time.. there's never enough of it....
    using a single idea and evolving it is really common..
    dance music does it a lot.. and a great many people do it that create music with a DAW..
    it's because it's easy.. you come up with an idea.. let's 16 bars long..
    then copy and add something on top.. then copy that and add something else and so on..
    this is not exactly a new idea though
    in Baroque music there are two forms that use repeated themes: the canon and a passacaglia 
    a canon has a theme on a specific instrument / voice that repeats and the music around it develops..
    a passacaglia is the same sort of thing, but the theme can switch 'voice'.. so you'll hear it appear in the bass, then maybe alto etc.. moving around.. so it has a slightly wider compositional scope..

    with your next piece, maybe try something like this purely for experimental purposes...
    within the DAW, create two short pieces of music
    make sure they are contrasting..
    thoughts / possibilities:
    - if one has strong rhythmic elements, the other can be more atmospheric
    - if one is built over a single chord, the other can be built on a chord progression
    - the two pieces do not have to be in the same key.. if they're not though, be careful about your key choices so that they have a specific effect or are complimentary
    - if one piece is strong and powerful, the other is soft
    - if one piece has a melody, either create a new melody in the other, or maybe create a variation of the melody in the other [which is something I do a lot of so that the contrast sounds more connected with the main themes]

    you don't have to do all of these things in the same song at the same time, they're just things to try out and explore individually or in combinations...
    at the end of it.. instead of 2 hours to create a piece, spend 4 hours creating 2 pieces, then insert the contrasting piece within the main one.. and place it such that when the main one returns it is at [or almost at] it's final stages of growth so it climaxes..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    thanks again, I'm taking this all in brother!


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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    Snap said:
    thanks again, I'm taking this all in brother!


    no probs matey...
    I can talk composition all day long
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    here's a pretty one...
    very different from my usual crashing and banging..


    play every note as if it were your first
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    LIke that. Very much my thing. You should do more of this. Very emotional actually, has a lot of weight in it, if you know what I mean, sort of swells into you.

    Just realised I wasn't following you on SC, well that's now sorted!!


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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    btw, I took your compositional advice and have altered my last track, been working on various ideas over xmas, and ended up coming full circle, obviously, but have put in a new section that breaks the track up. I think it works, but await your verdict, once I have mastered it :)
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    sorted



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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    Snap said:
    LIke that. Very much my thing. You should do more of this. Very emotional actually, has a lot of weight in it, if you know what I mean, sort of swells into you.

    Just realised I wasn't following you on SC, well that's now sorted!!


    I have to say that I really enjoyed this compositional style so I'd certainly like to do more of it..
    however... it's not the sort of thing that I get briefs for
    so as much as I'd like to do more of this, I suspect it'd be for my own pleasure rather than being a 'job' piece..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933

    Snap said:
    btw, I took your compositional advice and have altered my last track, been working on various ideas over xmas, and ended up coming full circle, obviously, but have put in a new section that breaks the track up. I think it works, but await your verdict, once I have mastered it :)
    very cool... I'll be looking forward to hearing it..
    in your opinion, do you think that the introduction of contrasting material benefited the piece overall?
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    it most definitely benefitted it. What do you think? Works?

    I like evolving repeating motif based music, and listen to it a lot. That Boards of Canada piece above is a track I never tire of listening to. However, doing that sort of piece has an innate challenge IMO: making it interesting. The best tracks of this type have subtle evolutions all the way through, and also have pauses and contrasts.

    Having said that, I like listening to drone music. It zombies me out.
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    edited January 3
    Snap said:
    sorted



    haaaa.... so what we are hearing now is:

    section A: built around 2 chords.. atmospherics, very little in the way of rhythmic content
    section B: clearly a distinct and contrasting section.. a chord progression.. more rhythmic and melodic content
    in old money [classical music terms], it's binary form: AB

    personally I think this works much better than just adding stuff over and over..
    cos there's more to listen to
    both sections are very good individually too and the introduction of section B provides a 'lift' that is quite strong
    from the listener's perspective, the introduction of section B [as opposed to continuously adding to section A] provides a sense of motion.. like the piece is purposefully going somewhere..

    thought for future pieces...
    try not to get stuck in a single form [AB only for example]
    mix it up..
    Ternary form [ABA] is also a good..
    this is where you end with either the same material as the opening section [ABA]
    or with a more developed version [ABA'] of the opening section..
    so A [or A and the more developed A'] become pillars that enclose the B section.
    This recapitulation of familiar material kind of 'brings you home'.. it has a nice symmetry..
    Fundamentally, it's how the 1st Movement of a Sonata and Symphony works [Exposition, Development and Recapitulation sections]..
    Another form to experiment with is the ABACAD etc.. this is Rondo form
    this is where you have a repeating theme that is divided by new material each time

    think about taking the listener on a journey or a roller coaster ride..
    so play with dynamics too..
    for example.. a big powerful A section, a soft and gentle B section, then a climaxing more developed A' section..
    or the opposite..
    a soft atmospheric A that builds to a huge and epic B section.. then A' could be the reverse of A so it unwinds back down to something small and fragile
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    Snap said:
    it most definitely benefitted it. What do you think? Works?

    I like evolving repeating motif based music, and listen to it a lot. That Boards of Canada piece above is a track I never tire of listening to. However, doing that sort of piece has an innate challenge IMO: making it interesting. The best tracks of this type have subtle evolutions all the way through, and also have pauses and contrasts.

    Having said that, I like listening to drone music. It zombies me out.
    personally I like music that evolves too, but not only by adding layer upon layer..
    but also by evolving the theme and it's harmonisation to take it in new and unusual places..
    a simple example [which is possibly a bit crap too, but mainly just to get a point across]..
    we have a bass line [or melody] that is A, C, G, D
    the chords are Am, C, G, D
    nothing amazing so far... a little thing in the key of Am, and the D chord makes it A Dorian]..
    this works through it's A section compositional evolution...
    then we go for contrast with the B section, Am, Cm, Gm, Dm
    now any melody you have needs to be reworked because these chords are no longer all in the same key..
    and if you want B to get further away from A, transpose the B section to different root notes that follow the same melodic sequence.. Em, Gm, Dm, Am, for example..
    the material will be really different... yet there is something kinda familiar about it so that the A and B sections are clearly related...
    using material previously heard that has been re-worked avoids what I call 'the lego effect'..
    basically.. write a block.. then another... then another.. all unrelated.. and then just bung them together..
    this reuse of developing themes is something I learned when I studied the great classical masters..
    it was a major compositional penny drop moment for me.. after that my writing was never the same..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    Thanks for all this Clarky, its ace. I love it.

    I studied piano, classical, through all the grades (Mum was a music teacher) from about 6 upto age 14. Then I decided pianos were too girly and I needed to play a guitar to get the girls!

    Got into synths too (in a band as a teenager for many years), but tbh I was more into the noises they could make, rather than the actual music.We had some cracking kit for a bunch of teenagers too, as we all worked our asses off in Saturday, evenings, weekend jobs. We even had a Minimoog at one point, as well as a DX27, Korg Poly6, Poly 800, Roland SH101, drum machines, and never mind the PA and amps! Loads of gear I'd love to have now tbh (WEM copycat !)

    It was at this point I started to forget all the musical stuff I'd learnt tbh. If it didn't make a big massive rawkin noise, I wasn't fussed. This means that whilst I can read music, I am slow reading for anything apart from the piano. There's a step needed to convert from 88 keys to 6 strings.

    I was raised on classical music, my Mum had it on the go all the time, so if you'd asked me age 13 how a fugue works, or a minuet etc, I'd have had no problem. Not the case now! Whilst I may be able to tell you if a piece is Baroque, Romantic, maybe even the composer (at a stretch), beyond that I'm clutching at history and vague memories!!

    So, this sort of stuff is a real shot in the arm and is making me wish I'd kept up with the theory.

    Whereas my baby bro did a degree in jazz and then went to Berklee to do his postgrad in composition, now that boy can play.....(piano).
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    Snap said:
    Thanks for all this Clarky, its ace. I love it.

    I studied piano, classical, through all the grades (Mum was a music teacher) from about 6 upto age 14. Then I decided pianos were too girly and I needed to play a guitar to get the girls!

    Got into synths too (in a band as a teenager for many years), but tbh I was more into the noises they could make, rather than the actual music.We had some cracking kit for a bunch of teenagers too, as we all worked our asses off in Saturday, evenings, weekend jobs. We even had a Minimoog at one point, as well as a DX27, Korg Poly6, Poly 800, Roland SH101, drum machines, and never mind the PA and amps! Loads of gear I'd love to have now tbh (WEM copycat !)

    It was at this point I started to forget all the musical stuff I'd learnt tbh. If it didn't make a big massive rawkin noise, I wasn't fussed. This means that whilst I can read music, I am slow reading for anything apart from the piano. There's a step needed to convert from 88 keys to 6 strings.

    I was raised on classical music, my Mum had it on the go all the time, so if you'd asked me age 13 how a fugue works, or a minuet etc, I'd have had no problem. Not the case now! Whilst I may be able to tell you if a piece is Baroque, Romantic, maybe even the composer (at a stretch), beyond that I'm clutching at history and vague memories!!

    So, this sort of stuff is a real shot in the arm and is making me wish I'd kept up with the theory.

    Whereas my baby bro did a degree in jazz and then went to Berklee to do his postgrad in composition, now that boy can play.....(piano).
    wow that's really interesting....

    I studied music at Goldsmiths London
    I was the only non-classical musician in our tutor group..
    all the others were members of various conservatoires etc... cello, oboe etc....
    for a quite some time they'd only talk amongst themselves.. the headbanger was a bit of an outcast..
    that was until one day we had to write a short fugue.. teach said that I was the only one that not only followed all the rules, but the piece was musical, pleasant to listen to and pretty authentic to 18th century German style..
    hahaaaa.... victory ! ! !
    after then, the peeps started talking to the goon with the Strat.. especially when it came to counterpoint and composition..

    I learnt so much about composition that I use what I learned all the time..
    not only in my trailer works, but also in my regular song writing
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    @Clarky, you're a dark horse.

    Friend of ours did fine art at Goldsmiths. I can imagine you must have been a little "different" to the majority.

    For me, the whole field of theory and composition is something that fascinates me, but frustrates me a little as its something I know if I'd not let go, i'd have enjoyed. WHeareas now, when I have the fascination and will, I don't have the bleeding time. Couple that with trying to get better as a player, still trying to learn the banjo, and get better on bass, learn my DAW and VSTs more, hey, its a lot to do!!

    All good though,

    So, for now, I will focus on following some of your composition suggestions, and write another.


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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    Talking of fugues, an interesting album is Contrapunctus by Laibach, where they do, I think, Bach's Art of Fugue, reimagined, its a bit out there, but certainly Contrapunctus 1 is IMO v powerful.

    Its on Spotify, but is hard to track down on YT
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    Snap said:
    Talking of fugues, an interesting album is Contrapunctus by Laibach, where they do, I think, Bach's Art of Fugue, reimagined, its a bit out there, but certainly Contrapunctus 1 is IMO v powerful.

    Its on Spotify, but is hard to track down on YT
    I'll try to find it..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933

    Snap said:
    @Clarky, you're a dark horse.

    Friend of ours did fine art at Goldsmiths. I can imagine you must have been a little "different" to the majority.

    For me, the whole field of theory and composition is something that fascinates me, but frustrates me a little as its something I know if I'd not let go, i'd have enjoyed. WHeareas now, when I have the fascination and will, I don't have the bleeding time. Couple that with trying to get better as a player, still trying to learn the banjo, and get better on bass, learn my DAW and VSTs more, hey, its a lot to do!!

    All good though,

    So, for now, I will focus on following some of your composition suggestions, and write another.


    thing to remember is...
    theory is not a means to an end..
    the reason my piece was musical and got praise, whereas the others did not despite being technically correct..
    is cos they simply completed the task as a technical exercise..
    I always compose from intuition and musical instinct first..
    so.. I wrote a piece of music that I thought sounded nice and felt right for the period
    I used the rules to guide it's harmonisation and structure..
    the rules will always allow for multiple possibilities..
    your sense of art and creativity chooses those possibilities that feel right..

    music is art first and foremost..
    the science / math side of it simply explains / justifies your choices..
    and that's what the other folks missed
    they let the tail wag the dog
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • jasons_unicornjasons_unicorn Frets: 3
    edited February 6
    Many thanks
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    edited January 29
    Need feed back please. First recording on my phone. Saving to get some recording gear. 
    https://youtu.be/VLFpe3Q1egY
    Many thanks 
    jason
    sounds like guitars.. this thread is about music you make that is not guitar centric..

    nice piece though.. very moody..
    be careful with that reverb because it's very long and very strong to the point where it's burying the music at times..
    long reverbs can be very nice and make beautiful effects
    but maybe having the reverb a little less strong..
    or maybe try eq'ing the reverb so it's a little less strong in the lows to allow more space for the music
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 2266
    Agree, that's a cool mellow track Jason. But, and without sounding antsy, this thread is dedicated purposefully to doing stuff that isn't focused on guitar. Its for venting your inner synth head! So go on, get your keys out......;)
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2933
    @Snap how are you getting on with your new composing style experiments..??
    play every note as if it were your first
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