Stock PRS Tremolo v Wudtone PRS LR Upgrade - SHOOTOUT

Jez6345789

Hi I am as much as anything playing devils advocate here but as I hear it yes there is a very obvious difference. I think maybe the fact that Andy always has plenty of reverb on his amps is exaggerating the difference a dry test is better comparison. If the Wudtone brings out more harmonics then the reverb will be more excited and exaggerate the effect. That said I am going to probably try one as the price is very fair for what is a small build product. But as I have said a lot lately if you want it to sound like a Classic STrat or TELE adding so called superior modern versions from Andy Calaham etc does not get you closer to Classic STrat prs or TELE . It actually moves you away. If you like the new sound of any third party hardware then buy it. It's not better in my mind just a different tonal pallet.

andypwudtone

Jez6345789 said:

Hi I am as much as anything playing devils advocate here but as I hear it yes there is a very obvious difference. I think maybe the fact that Andy always has plenty of reverb on his amps is exaggerating the difference a dry test is better comparison. If the Wudtone brings out more harmonics then the reverb will be more excited and exaggerate the effect. That said I am going to probably try one as the price is very fair for what is a small build product. But as I have said a lot lately if you want it to sound like a Classic STrat or TELE adding so called superior modern versions from Andy Calaham etc does not get you closer to Classic STrat prs or TELE . It actually moves you away. If you like the new sound of any third party hardware then buy it. It's not better in my mind just a different tonal pallet.

thank you for your comment. I just want to add 

re  if you want it to sound like a Classic STrat or TELE adding so called superior modern versions from Andy Calaham etc does not get you closer to Classic STrat prs or TELE . 

Yes and NO, it depends on the Wudtone baseplate technology you choose. 

So to offer a tuning stable solution for a guitarist who wants a sound exactly like a Classic STrat option, Wudtone now offers an option based on on the same materials as the original fender base plates.  Its called the Wudtone CP VT ( constant pivot , vintage tone)

Essentially the Wudtone CPVT for a Strat player offers :  

• vintage plate body connection, dynamics
  
• same materials in plate , block and saddles ( and so same tone character) 
  
• same looks ( bent rear etc)
  
• superior tuning stability for wider range of trem action ( ie no tuning issues due to Wudtone design and recesses)
• improved feel , sensitivity
  

this sits alongside the CP HOLY GRAIL which is the modern, higher tensile steel ( as used with the PRS DD upgrade)

the higher tensile steel simply delivers better dynamic efficiency ( along with vintage style body connection)  and hence a boost to a guitar's dynamic, detail, clarity and sustain.  Same design around the bearing screws to fix the tuning problems.

kind regards

Zodiac51

Sounds interesting, just my bit of feedback as a PRS fanboy..

If you could incorporate your bridge and the PRS saddle system you could be onto a winner, but sticking those bent steel strat style saddles on a PRS looks like a backwards step to me.

andypwudtone

Zodiac51 said:

Sounds interesting, just my bit of feedback as a PRS fanboy..

If you could incorporate your bridge and the PRS saddle system you could be onto a winner, but sticking those bent steel strat style saddles on a PRS looks like a backwards step to me.

Hi @Zodiac51 , I do think there is a backward, looks, feel perception about steel strat style saddles that can be a bit unfair and they also have a benefit. Having said that we need to accept perceptions are reality. 

The PRS DD upgrade has a nice ergonomically shaped bar at the back / rear corner which is the main contact point for the palm of your hand. Over the last three years we have supplied 100's to Strat players and not had a single complaint about comfort, indeed customers have mentioned the extra comfort because of the rear bar you can see in the pic. So we don't have any evidence to suggest the Wudtone PRS DD upgrade ( even with steel nickel saddles)  has a feel issue or is uncomfortable or has any tuning related problems. Having said that Strat fans are not PRS fans and if you don't like steel nickel saddles, the Wudtone PRS DD upgrade is compatible with any more modern saddles, including PRS saddles. We can supply the PRS DD upgrade with or without saddles.   

The main issue folks seem to have had in the past with steel nickel saddles is saddle height screws that protrude because they are longer than they need to be. We do pay particular attention to getting that right. ( please see the pic) and supply a saddle height kit with each of these upgrades so you have a mix of 6mm, 8mm and 10mm to use to avoid any protrusion of saddle height screws.


Several PRS purists have tested both and found themselves sticking with the steel nickel saddles as they still seem to deliver the best fidelity of tone without any real comfort issues when no saddle height screws are protruding. But as I say both options can be used with the bridge. kind regards

stonevibe

I usually prefer a more traditional 'bent saddle', as if you get it right the feel all comfortable and sound better than the modern solid type.

andypwudtone

Hi @thomasross20 , did you catch the latest update ?

http://forums.prsguitars.com/threads/demo-of-wudtone-bridge-versus-stock.16387/page-2#post-243825

kind regards

thomasross20

Nope but just read it now - I knew A was the Wudtone and that was a very thorough review! 

andypwudtone

thomasross20 said:

Nope but just read it now - I knew A was the Wudtone and that was a very thorough review! 

thorough indeed here in case you missed it before PRS chopped it 

Enough already…how does it sound?

Okay, more subjectivity here. But listen to the clips I posted elsewhere on this forum, and you should be able to hear obvious differences. I was genuinely surprised at how much.

Many people in that thread noted the increase in brightness of one over the other, and indeed the brighter one was the Wudtone. But (and this is why I urged people to listen on good monitors) there is more to the tone change. I had set up most of my AxeFX patches to go with my 22-fret dual humbucker hardtail Schroeder. I don’t necessarily want all my guitars to sound the same, and a redwood top is going to sound different from a maple top for sure. But I found myself wanting some more of the midrange grunt out of the PRS that the Schroeder has, even after changing pickups.

There are a bunch of different cognitive and perceptual biases that can affect how you evaluate something: Expectancy effect, distinction bias, selective perception, confirmation bias, purchase rationalization… and let’s face it, some of us just think the grass is always greener somewhere else. So I’ll be the first to admit that I could be being influenced in some of these evaluations that are not as apparent in the recording. Also, note that I’m not a heavy tremolo user: I tend to use it VERY sparingly. So my ideal was kind of to get a hardtail tone but have access to the tremolo when I need it.

To my ear (and I didn’t know what to attribute this to), I found that I kept fighting for more in terms of low mid and midrange girth. I’d adjusted pickups up and down, changed capacitors, etc. Got very close, and yet it felt like I was fighting for something that I thought should be there. Putting on the Wudtone was a bit of a revelation in that regard: you often hear “like lifting a blanket off” in forums like this, and I always kind of equate that with the high-end (which, hey, is where blankets tend to absorb sound, right? Call me Mr. Literal.) In this case, what I hear through my studio monitors is a more even response, almost like the stock bridge was scooping out some mids and rolling off the highs a bit.

One thing that is perhaps less subjective: using my main lead patch, I could almost always get a note or two to feed back, especially the first G on the second string. That also corresponded to a midrange bump that I thought I was hearing, or hearing as a deficit of other midrange. With the Wudtone bridge, I get feedback in those same places (probably a guitar resonance), but I also am getting feedback in a lot more places. And on my ODS clone and the AxeFX Dumble patch I made, both of them seem to have more places on the fretboard that slip into that “note flip” territory where a note starts feeding back at the octave up, or another sweet harmonic.

Dynamics: for whatever reason, I do seem to be playing with more right-hand variation than before. The bridge seems to bring that out of me as a player. Playing lightly still manages to let the guitar ring, but just at a lower volume. Dig in, and it responds as you’d expect from a hardtail. In fact, the dynamics just feel more “hardtail” to me. This is very hard to describe, and I am still not completely convinced that I’m not attributing a feel thing to what is actually more of a tonal thing. Heck, it is possible I am imagining it altogether. But when I recorded that test clip I put up, I noticed what I thought was a difference even then that made me wonder if I’d done something different with my right hand. So I tried more stuff with my right hand. And changing my right hand changed the way the guitar responded. In ways that I at the very least had not noticed before.

Tremolo feel: Okay, here is where I think the PRS design has a bit of an edge in at least one sense. By balancing on that knife edge, you can put vibrato around a chord symmetrically (up and down both) and it feels very seamless. I think because of the way the bearing surface is machined on the Wudtone, it is not as seamless; there is a bit of a “catch” in there during that motion, more than I remember feeling with the PRS trem. This is in spite of having to back the tension off on the springs considerably to get the plate to lift a bit for the “up” portion of the swing.

I wonder if the geometry of that bearing edge could be improved to make that feeling go away altogether, with maybe a rounder bearing surface. But I recognize that the geometry of that is going to be very tricky. Another thing that might help would be to better polish both the shim and that bearing surface. I did use a very light Teflon grease on that surface, but even so I can feel the mechanicals working. It is also possible I don’t have the screw height adjusted perfectly, so I will revisit that.

Here is one possible advantage to the Wudtone design – it can easily be set up to be a down-only virtual hardtail. The way the plate hits the shim means that it easily can be set up to just bounce right back to “flat and flush” with the shim. In fact, before I adjusted the claw spring tension, that’s exactly how it worked. And for someone who doesn’t use tremolo much, or only for divebombing, this might be a good thing. And it is virtually guaranteed to bounce back perfectly in tune in that situation.

Speaking of tuning, I did have some tuning problems. But I ended up narrowing those down to changes in tension behind the nut. Even set up with up-swing available, the Wudtone seems to do a very good job indeed of returning to good tuning if the rest of the setup is working properly.

Overall, I think this is a very good and clever design, and offers some differences that are worth considering. I was struck by the changes in tone… both the degree of change and the quality of it. Whether you think they are better or worse is up to you. But in spite of the issues with the finish quality, I’m likely to be keeping the Wudtone. 

Kebabkid

Hi Andy,

I have a PRS EG1 (22 fret, HSH pickup configuration) and the trem is ok-ish. Dynamics, added fatness (all good things) aside on your one, will it give you the play of something like a Floyd Rose so that you can dive bomb, trem flutter, bounce and still stay in tune and can you pull up on it as well or is it not designed to be a floating bridge?
The Ernie Ball Luke and Suhrs can do it and I just wondered if there was any footage of someone putting it through it's paces in this type of way.

Sounds like a great product and good luck with it!

andypwudtone

HI @Kebabkid, ;

Thank you,  It is designed to operate as a floating bridge with which you can up as well as down pitch. The amount is just dependant on the claw setting.

Let me know if you have any more q's. kind regards

A very tasty player @alexcoombes ( Harris Guitars) had a go on a PRS fitted with it at the recent guitar show. He dialled the guitar straight into a gorgeous ( bit higher gain than I use, with almost constant sustain delivered) tone and really put it through its paces. Sounded way better than I've managed. Hope he doesn't mind me tagging him in this reply, in case he is around here,  to add something about his experience with it at the show. cheers 

Kebabkid

Thanks Andy

DrBob

Kebabkid;993073" said:

Hi Andy,



I have a PRS EG1 (22 fret, HSH pickup configuration) and the trem is ok-ish. Dynamics, added fatness (all good things) aside on your one, will it give you the play of something like a Floyd Rose so that you can dive bomb, trem flutter, bounce and still stay in tune and can you pull up on it as well or is it not designed to be a floating bridge?

The Ernie Ball Luke and Suhrs can do it and I just wondered if there was any footage of someone putting it through it's paces in this type of way.



Sounds like a great product and good luck with it!

I've got an original Wudtone trem (I think it's now sold as the Holy Grail ) on my GSPBasses Strat build and whilst I'm not sure if it's quite as fluttery or wobbly as a full on double locking Floyd what I would say is that prior to having this I always preferred two post trems like the Wilkinson VS100 or indeed the EBMM one for the greater fluidity and ease of movement they offer in use.
However I feel the Wudtone offers a significant improvement over the normal vintage six screw type trems in terms of smoothness in use. In fact I'd go as far as to say that my awful Jeff Beck impersonations have never sounded better !

Evildurka

Might have to get one of these for my Tremonti

Evildurka

@andypwudtone if I bought one of these trems without the saddles would the ones currently installed on the stock PRS trem fit?

I know it is probably a daft question but I wanted to know for sure. Thanks

andypwudtone

Hi @Evildurka, they would. 

Let me know if you have any more q's

kind regards

fsmith

Was the audio recorded with the camera mics?

andypwudtone

fsmith said:

Was the audio recorded with the camera mics?

Audio , done with Zoom H2 single point steroe recorder. 
kind regards