Cello On The Cheap?

Nomad

Anybody play, or knowledgeable on, cello?

It's an instrument I've been attracted to for a long time, but have never played one. I did try violin for a while, but didn't get on with it (just too small, and maybe the range is a bit higher than I prefer).

Anyway, as is usually the case these days, there are beginner/student instruments available at prices that were unheard of a few years ago, and Gear4Music have an interesting selection starting from 200 quid for a laminated one. I don't fancy that, but the Deluxe model at 330 quid looks like it might be worth a punt...

http://www.gear4music.com/Woodwind-Brass-Strings/Deluxe-4-4-Cello-with-Case-by-Gear4music/6B6

I'm more attracted to this than the (cheaper solid) one at 250 because it has what look like better fine tuners (Wittner rather than no-name), and a wood tailpiece (jujube - mostly Asian sourced, and apparently used for musical instruments). The slight flaming of the back and sides appeals as well, but isn't essential. Also comes with what may be a better bow.

I realise that a setup will probably be needed, and the strings changed.

I'm not necessarily looking to take this up seriously - it's more about dipping a toe in the water and trying it out. The student models that cost 600+ are too expensive for me to do that. I'm also aware of the possibility of hiring one (there's a place not far from me that does hires at £22 per month, 3 months minimum). I may look into that in any case, but what's the deal with a 3rd-rung cheap cello like the above?

The only demo I can find of one is this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3b7KYRLe-8

...which sounds fine to me (I realise she knows what she's doing).

 

Heartfeltdawn

I'm fairly well versed with cellos after living with a professional cellist and teacher for five years, the odd dabble myself, and having a now deceased grandfather who made them and taught me a bit about them (this is one of his cellos currently for sale at Thwaites) 

The cheap cellos coming from the Far East are, like the guitars, getting better in quality. A setup is generally essential as is restringing. As I'm sure you know, decent strings are not cheap. 

If you're looking to dip your toe in then I would go with a cello hire for three months (£66 going by the prices you've found althogh I am unsure if that includes bow hire) and to find a teacher and get lessons for the duration of the hire. At around £20 to £25 an hour, they would help you get the most out of the instrument whilst it is on hire. 12 lessons @ £25 = £300 plus £66 for cello hire = £366. I think you'd be much better going for that option than dropping £330 on a new instrument that will almost certainly need setup work on it. 

Guitars you can get away with on the cheap. Cheap in cello terms to me means paying the same amount you'd spend on a decent secondhand amp (£800 to a grand). Bow prices - depends on what you fancy. 

Jalapeno

I know upright bass strings cost a bloody fortune, and so expect 'Cello ones are similarly priced

Nomad

Yeah, I know the strings aren't cheap.

Had a look for teachers in my area, and there are two or three nearby, at varying prices. Not sure I'd want lessons every week, though - maybe fortnightly.

The shop that does hires reopens on Monday, so I'll see if I can get out for a visit and a mooch around. They do some reasonable beginner deals for purchase which include a setup, so I'll check those out, and see if they have anything interesting second hand.

In terms of GASsing for a cello, this looks like a better option than the Deluxe one...

http://www.gear4music.com/Woodwind-Brass-Strings/Archer-4-4-Cello-Case-and-Accessory-Pack-by-Gear4music/AUJ

All ebony bits, and hand made by enslaved luthiers.

Sporky

Jalapeno said:

I know upright bass strings cost a bloody fortune, and so expect 'Cello ones are similarly priced

'Bout £150 a set.

I am literally a few days into playing cello and I am pretty certain that lessons are essential - just waiting for a local teacher to work out the schedule for the year.

mellowsun

I started playing cello as a kid and did all the grades. Stopped playing around 19 when I got into guitar.

I'd recommend hiring a cello first to see how you get on. 

In terms of lessons vs teaching yourself, first off, the cello is tuned in 5ths (C G D A). Getting the left hand technique is probably easier if you already play the guitar, but the bowing technique takes a lot of practice in order to get a good tone. 

Getting a decent bow can be expensive - I sold my bow for 700 quid back in 1993! Yes, just a stick of wood, but it needs to be balanced and light with the right amount of springiness. 

Thinking about this has made me want to play again! Like Sporky though I'd probably get a Yamaha silent cello now rather than a wood one. 

I used to love playing the Elgar Cello Concerto and the Bach Cello suites.

btw if you are looking for cello music I have stacks of it in the loft, if you are interested I can see if I have anything that would be good to start with.

ToneControl

why do bows cost more than a cello sometimes?

Jalapeno

ToneControl said:

why do bows cost more than a cello sometimes?

Same with violins & violas, they just do

Sporky

mellowsun said:

I used to love playing the Elgar Cello Concerto and the Bach Cello suites.

btw if you are looking for cello music I have stacks of it in the loft, if you are interested I can see if I have anything that would be good to start with.

The Bach suites are on my long-term list to learn.

mellowsun

Sporky said:

The Bach suites are on my long-term list to learn.

Suite 1 (in G) and Suite 3 (in C) are good places to start.

Suite 6 is fiendishly hard to play on a 4 string cello, as it was written for a 5 string instrument

ToneControl

Jalapeno said:

ToneControl said:

why do bows cost more than a cello sometimes?

Same with violins & violas, they just do

hmm do they have pixie dust or mojo in them?

seriously, how can the effort and cost of getting the materials for a bow be so high compared to a whole instrument?

I asked a bass player, and she had accepted the cost difference, but did not have a detailed reason, so does anyone here know?

Sporky

Some bows are more expensive than some cellos, but in general cellos are more expensive than their accompanying bows.

There are various price ratios I've seen suggested from about 1:6 (bow to cello) up to 1:1. I went for about 1:10.

Nomad

@Sporky, what cello did you get, and what do you think of it so far? Did you get a setup done?

Sporky

I have the Yamaha SVC-110. So far all good - but it arrived on the 30th and I'd never played before!

Things that struck me, good and not so good, are:

1. The tuners are bit infuriating - the big ones on the scroll need to be pushed in very firmly or they slip, and the fine tuners don't seem to do anything.
2. The bow needed an awful lot of rosin (or so it seemed to me) before any sound came out of the cello.
3. It is quite nicely made. A good balance of looking quite traditional and very modern. I'd considered the NS Cello too but I thought that might be too modern looking and I didn't want to risk upsetting potential teachers that way!
4. It's surprisingly loud - not a patch on a real cello of course, but you can still really hear it.
   

Other than that my main thoughts so far is that there's an awful lot to learn - even just how to sit with it and how to hold the bow. I'm mostly doing some exercises on learning where the notes are for now as there's a local teacher who's said she'll get back to me in the next week or two if she has lesson slots left. I don't want to teach myself too many bad habits in advance.

I've not had a setup done but I imagine it's well worth it, just need to find somewhere local and decent.

Nomad

Not bargain basement for a first cello, then.

The tuning is similar on my (cheapo) violin. The pegs work by friction but also need to be relatively easy to turn. Apparently, there's gripper/lubricant paste that helps with this. On the violin, I set the fine tuners to about the middle of their range and then get the strings as close as I can with the pegs. Turning the pegs seems to be about applying torque while keeping some push on them towards the peg box. The shafts/holes are tapered, and the grip can loosen if they're just turned without pressing in a little. Once it's close with the pegs, I use the fine tuners. They do run out of range quite quickly, and tuning one string can affect the others - last night, I tried the violin for the first time in ages, and had to go back to the pegs after the initial tune to get the pitches closer.

Also found this YouTube channel for lessons, which I thought was rather good...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmqd0libeB6LXhgod2VQ5uQ

Have a look in the playlists for the beginners lessons. Not saying that this would be a substitute for a real teacher, but I got the impression that it gives a good idea of what to expect from lessons.

Sporky

All much appreciated, thank you!

I figured that if I went decent on the instrument then the only thing holding me back woudl be talent and practice. I don't much believe in talent, so this way I've only myself to worry about.

I'd figured the tuners were a simple/elegant/primitive design and they're fine once properly jammed in. Bit annoying when I forget and the string completely unravels and falls off but I'll learn.

I'd been following that chap's lessons but under another name:



I'll give your link a go too. Thanks again.

ToneControl

can you fit Gibson Robot tuning pegs?

;-)

JonHarper

Been a cellist for over 15 years. went through the grades & 2 diplomas (ATCL & LTCL). Done some teaching on and off. Like mellowsun, i've got tonnes of sheet music.

Caswell's is an excellent place to check out http://www.caswells-strings.co.uk/shop/7-cellos?orderby=price&orderway=asc

as far as electric cellos go, i've got a NS Design CR6P - a bit of time to get used to but whatever model you've got (4,5,6 string) you can play it at an angle and even horizontally like a bass/guitar! a la 

Nomad

Sporky said:

I figured that if I went decent on the instrument then the only thing holding me back woudl be talent and practice. I don't much believe in talent, so this way I've only myself to worry about.

I tend to the same view - no point in getting the real el-cheapo stuff (which is what I did with the violin years ago, but at least I found out that it's too small and awkward for me). I think it's a case of trying to find a happy medium between cost and decent quality, while being under no illusions. That said, I suspect there is a serious diminishing returns thing going on (as with most instruments), and a beginner is unlikely to have a sufficiently developed ear to appreciate the differences once things get expensive.

The Archer one from G4M ticks a lot of boxes for me - they seem to have nailed the spec and materials in terms of what is expected on better instruments. I'd expect the strings to be crap. About the only unknowns are the overall build quality and finish, and how precise the assembly is. If I fail to avoid the GAS, I think I'd first take it to the local luthier place for their opinion on its quality and potential to be set up well and sound balanced.

I went through a similar thing when buying my tenor sax, after much research. As long as you're reasonably selective, it came down to Chinese instruments are now generally well made and actually work, at least in terms of the metal bits, but corners are cut elsewhere - the mouthpieces are crap, the neck straps are rubbish, etc. I went with Thomann's own brand (rather than the generic 'Startone' Chinese ones they also did) because they play test all of their own-brand ones, so there was at least a basic bit of quality control before it got shipped out. With a better budget mouthpiece and good reeds, it turned out fine - all notes work, intonation okay.

The thing that made me consider Chinese (meaning very affordable toe-dip pricing) was a review by a well-known sax tech who literally wrote the Haynes Manual on sax setup and maintenance (called Stephen Howard). He reviews saxes on his web site when they come in for service/setup, and made very positive noises about a particular Chinese alto, which eventually turned out to be Gear4Music's own brand. Given the caveats about poor quality accessories, he reckoned the basic instrument was very passable for a student and basically felt that Chinese saxes had come of age. I balked at having a sax with "Gear4Music" engraved on it (just too naff), and decided that "Thomann" was more passable given that they do have a reputation for supplying decent budget instruments to the education sector. When comparing photos, I couldn't see any differences other than the engraving, so felt that they were all probably made in the same factory, to the retailer's specs.

So, I find myself wondering if the G4M Archer model is worthy of serious consideration as a first acoustic cello. It's the top of their own-brand range, and they do make specific claims in their spiel about it being a better instrument than the other own-brand ones they do.

Sporky said:

I'd been following that chap's lessons but under another name:

That's the one I found at first, but those are copied uploads of the original vids (and each is also split into two parts). The one I linked is the man's own channel and is better quality (and he deserves the hits rather than the slimy freeloader). I like his style - relaxed, and covers stuff that other online lessons don't (like holding the bow with the left hand and just sliding the right along it to get a feel for the movement).

Sporky

Nomad said:

That's the one I found at first, but those are copied uploads of the original vids (and each is also split into two parts). The one I linked is the man's own channel and is better quality (and he deserves the hits rather than the slimy freeloader). I like his style - relaxed, and covers stuff that other online lessons don't (like holding the bow with the left hand and just sliding the right along it to get a feel for the movement).

Right - I will switch to the official one then.

I like his approach. And he reminds me of the Great Egg Race man.

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

hmm do they have pixie dust or mojo in them?

seriously, how can the effort and cost of getting the materials for a bow be so high compared to a whole instrument?

I asked a bass player, and she had accepted the cost difference, but did not have a detailed reason, so does anyone here know?

Here in Bristol, there is a superb bow maker by the name of John Stagg. His top of the range bows come in between £2,500 to £3,500. Many makers will have old wood stocks that are very hard or impossible to find now. That means they can charge a premium for that wood. There's also the level of skill and dedication to bow making. It's very different from instrument making. My grandfather was honest enough when i asked him years ago why he made instruments and didn't make bows: "Because I'm not good enough" was his reply. Once you start reading about some of the great bowmakers (someone like William C Retford for instance), you realise the level of dedication involved. 

Now £2,500 for a bow is obviously expensive. But is it that expensive compared to a decent cello? No. One of my friends has been a professional cellist for 15 years now, RCM educated, everything from teaching to playing the RAH. Her cello was £8,000. As she says, it was the best she could afford at the time and it does the job.