What are the options for improving intonation on acoustics when downtuning?

guitarfishbay

The music I write is in C#/Drop B tuning and to some extent this means intonation is compromised on my acoustics.

What are the options for better intonation - is it possible to have a bridge which is cut to compensate, without having to move any of the existing holes in the guitar?  Like this?

 

Or am I likely to need a new bridge with the slot for the saddle in the correct place?

guitarfishbay

Both guitars I have are a 25.5" scale to begin with IIRC

earwighoney

There are some factors to address on an acoustic guitar for compensation which can improve things, but getting 'perfect' intonation like on a solid body electric guitar can be unlikely. 

1 - String Tension

There are a few tension guides for strings online be it the McDonald Strings, D'addario String Tension Pro which work to finding the tension if you downtune to compensate (ie bringing the tension up to the tension which it should be for standard)

2 String Alloys

Intonation can be affected by different alloys/types of strings. 

3 String Age

Old strings are more prone to problems with intonation

4 Compensated Saddle

A tech would probably be able to address the situation with a custom saddle, be it with overhang if needed be.  Otherwise check Chris Alsop's website

5. Compensated Nut

Same with the above.  

6. Humidity

This can be the jack in the box.  Some guitars can have no problems with it others can be incredibly temperamental. 

guitarfishbay

Does the overhanging saddle method affect performance of the guitar in any way?

Yeah I'm not looking for perfect just so it sounds nicer.  I re-voice some chords to get them to sound more in tune, but I'd prefer if possible to play them as intended.

I'm using 13-56 Daddarios, I tried a thicker low string (I think a 60 but I'm not 100% sure) and it actually made intonation noticeably worse - I think the bridge would have required modification for it to work.

octatonic

It is always going to be a struggle, some of the stuff mentioned can help but ultimately it is up to you how satisfied you are with them.

I've used some Csus tunings (CGCFCF, CGCFCC) for quite a few years and end up tuning at the 5th or 7th fret as it is the best compromise.

Recutting nuts and saddles can work but then won't work as optimally in in standard tuning.

Would you consider purchasing a baritone?

earwighoney

guitarfishbay said:

Does the overhanging saddle method affect performance of the guitar in any way?

Yeah I'm not looking for perfect just so it sounds nicer.  I re-voice some chords to get them to sound more in tune, but I'd prefer if possible to play them as intended.

I'm using 13-56 Daddarios, I tried a thicker low string (I think a 60 but I'm not 100% sure) and it actually made intonation noticeably worse - I think the bridge would have required modification for it to work.

Sometimes too much tension/heavier strings will make things worse; I have a nylon string which has a lot of problems with higher tension strings. 

Btw, I largely play in Open C (for one guitar, Open C down a Semi Tone for another) and I use 12-54's/Mediums respectively and even if things aren't perfect. 

For your intonation gripes, it's a really tricky one to address as there are some many variables.  Saddle height and neck relief are factors as well.  For one of my acoustics, I increased the relief and lowered the saddle which had a positive impact on the guitar's intonation. 

ToneControl

guitarfishbay said:

Does the overhanging saddle method affect performance of the guitar in any way?

Yeah I'm not looking for perfect just so it sounds nicer.  I re-voice some chords to get them to sound more in tune, but I'd prefer if possible to play them as intended.

I'm using 13-56 Daddarios, I tried a thicker low string (I think a 60 but I'm not 100% sure) and it actually made intonation noticeably worse - I think the bridge would have required modification for it to work.

the normal baritone gauge for a bottom acoustic string is 70 (the ones I use)

I'd guess that it's possible that at 60+ and definitely at 70, the string may not be sitting correctly in the nut

try using a capo at fret 1, and testing the intonation at the 13th fret

ToneControl

oh, and try to buy a 29 or 30 inch baritone, they sound far better than a downtuned 25.5 inch guitar

guitarfishbay

I would consider a baritone but I don't understand there to be many options for something off the shelf and reasonably priced (£500 and below).  Buying a custom made baritone is going to be out of the question this year but I would like one.

Just googled - For off the shelf there seems to be an Ibanez

https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/folk-electro-acoustic-guitar/ibanez-aelbt1-nt-electro-acoustic-steel-string-baritone-guitar?gclid=CN68saT5ocoCFRQTGwod8UULCQ#specs

And an Alvarez (never seen one of them?)

http://www.musik-produktiv.co.uk/alvarez-artist-abt60e.html?gclid=CJ-kv7b5ocoCFQHkwgodZUUH6g

I actually wasn't aware that Ibanez were doing a baritone acoustic currently.  I will have to look into it further.

richardhomer

I use 13-56 medium gauge strings and often tune to CFCCGD (low to high - the two middle strings in unison, so the third is tuned down a long way).

Combined with a not too heavy left hand, I get decent intonation.

ICBM

Just a thought - try 'piano wound' strings like Rotosound Country Gold. These are where the winding stops just before the bridge saddle so only the core wire rests on it. I've sometimes found them to be a problem for intonating flat in standard tuning, so it may be exactly what you need for down-tuning where the issue is being sharp.

ToneControl

ICBM said:

Just a thought - try 'piano wound' strings like Rotosound Country Gold. These are where the winding stops just before the bridge saddle so only the core wire rests on it. I've sometimes found them to be a problem for intonating flat in standard tuning, so it may be exactly what you need for down-tuning where the issue is being sharp.

I wondered if you could get ones like that, they could work well for this

check the nut slot though as well

guitarfishbay

I think the nut is fine, but I'll double check it.

It seems those Country Gold Strings are now called 'Super Bronze' and the thickest off the shelf set is 12-54.  

http://www.rotosound.com/super-bronze/

The website seems to suggest you can get up to a 60 but I've not yet found anywhere online stocking singles.  I might try a set of the 12s anyway, they're not too dissimilar to the 13s set I'm using now when you compare all strings.

ToneControl

Elixir baritones go to 70

others go to similar gauges

guitarfishbay

I tried the Rotos and the set I had buzzed, well more rattled, really weirdly, seemed to be coming from the bridge. I wonder if the groove in the saddle needs some attention? I only tried the low string, intonation was maybe slightly better but still audibly out. Because of the rattling and a lack of time I just abandoned trying the rest of the set last night.

Anyway in the meantime I'm back on Daddario 13s, tuning at the 5th fret seems best compromise for now. Only seems necessary on the lowest string.

ICBM

guitarfishbay said:

I tried the Rotos and the set I had buzzed, well more rattled, really weirdly, seemed to be coming from the bridge. I wonder if the groove in the saddle needs some attention?

They do lower the action slightly because the winding "hangs down" below the core, so it might have been that.

If the saddle is worn so there are noticeable grooves that won't help either - nor with the intonation. Ideally the saddle should be hard enough that it doesn't really indent much. It sounds like you might need a new one - which is a good opportunity to cut it with the peak at the back edge instead of in the middle or at the front as they usually are. 

Or do a compensated one like in the pic - you don't have to do that complex shape, I just cut them with two straight ridges, one running from the front to the back under the E and B, and the other from the front to the back under the G, D A and E, with just a single kink in the gap between the B and G. It always gives better intonation than a plain saddle.

guitarfishbay

Graphtec do off the shelf Tusq compensated saddles http://www.graphtech.com/products/brands/tusq/tusq-acoustic-saddles

Strings direct have them at £7.99 so not much to lose by giving them a go.  I'll have to measure up to see which one is suitable.

This seems to be the most standard fitting one.  http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/parts-c4/saddles-c110/graphtech-tusq-acoustic-saddle-compensated-fits-most-fender-gibson-yamaha-takamine-guild-p5501

Failing that I'll take it to a tech to get a new one made.

ICBM

guitarfishbay said:

This seems to be the most standard fitting one.  http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/parts-c4/saddles-c110/graphtech-tusq-acoustic-saddle-compensated-fits-most-fender-gibson-yamaha-takamine-guild-p5501

That's a left-handed one .

guitarfishbay

Lol well I will make sure the right one when I get round to it!