When to play what...

Nikko

Ok, so, im getting to the point where I like to try and improv over songs. Ive learnt a few of the modes so far, and some pentatonics. What I cant work out though, is when to play what. Is there a simple formula that says 'if you play a progression that starts with Em, then you use THIS mode? If you start a progression with C, then you use THIS pentatonic position?

Sorry if this is a really basic question, but im struggling to get my head around it.

Cheers

digitalscream

Voila:

http://jguitar.com/harmonizer/chord2scale

Nikko

That's 'effing amazing. Thanks very much.

ElectroDan

That's pretty cool.

octatonic

Chord to Scale is useful but you can also feel a bit like you are drowning in options.

I think the best way is to transcribe solos and compare them against the harmony of the piece.

You learn not only what works mathematically but also musically- for instance, although you can use a c major scale over a c major chord, you probably don't want to finish a phrase on the perfect 4th (F) of the c major scale  when playing a progression that moves back from the V chord to the I chord.

It would work fine over a I to IV chord change though.

Transcribing solos tells you not only what you can use but also how to use it and this is far more useful, imho.

mellowsun

Use the rhythm of the song to get ideas - in a song context, unlike a generic backing track, the chords don't exist in isolation. Most songs will have some sort of 'hook' - a riff, a drum part, a bass line, or melody - that makes it memorable.

If you can hum it, you can play it.

close2u

Nikko said:

 Ive learnt a few of the modes so far, and some pentatonics. What I cant work out though, is when to play what. 

When not to learn (more) scales .... when you can't use the ones you know

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/QT-005-WhenNOTToLearnScales.php

viz

I agree with Justin and Octa. That harmonizer is great as a reference, but there's no escaping the fact that we need to understand what's happening in the harmony before we are able to be fluent in melody. You don't need to have a theory qualification, but your mind does need to feel what the song's doing. In time that becomes second nature and some people are seemingly able to noodle over any chord changes in real time, through a combination of knowing the song, experience in knowing common options and anticipating the next chord, selection of flexible notes that work in a number of contexts, avoiding notes that nail your colours to the mast until you are completely sure of what the next underlying chord is, and recovery strategies when you play a jazz note. That only comes through a deep familiarity of how music works, which can be arrived at empirically, or with the benefit of theory as well.

I would try to understand a few of your favourite solos really deeply, to find out how they work and why they work.

On modes, they're basically useful in a few main ways:

Some pieces are "modal": just like some pieces are in G major or D minor, there are some in Lydian (flying in a blue dream - C Lydian, the 4th is always raised over the root chord) or Dorian (hooray and up she rises - the third 'she' is a raised 6th), or Overtone (The Simpsons, not even a mode of the major scale, but the 4th mode of melodic minor). It's not really relevant that the mode is actually a MODE of a related ionian or aeolian scale - it's just a key-defining scale in its own right.

'Modes' are also used by default in pieces. For example if the harmony changes underneath the melody, but each chord uses a common scale. For example Twinkle twinkle little star, in C major (C ionian). That consists of I chords, IV chords and V chords. You can noodle in the C major scale or pentatonic all they way through that. (It's not going to sound particularly interesting btw!) Because it uses a common scale. When it moves to the IV chord, that's an F chord, but you can't play F ionian, the harmony demands that you play notes which are in C major and raise the 4th. The notes you need are in F Lydian because Lydian is the 4th mode of ionian. And over the V chord, the notes you need are in G mixolydian, because mixolydian is the 5th mode of Ionian.

So over twinkle twinkle, you can solo any of those scales, or indeed A aeolian (or A minor pentatonic) and you'll be safe, if a little bored. Same with Happy birthday.

Then again, thankfully harmony isn't always that simple. Harmonies also change in ways that don't deploy a common scale, so you have to change accordingly. Just grabbing one at random - Bridge over troubled water, when it goes to the first IV chord, unlike twinkle twinkle, it requires a natural 4th (a sus 4) not the augmented 4th of Lydian because the harmony doesn't share a common scale. If you were to noodle in the major key throughout it would be a disaster.

I think you have to grow an understanding (not necessarily in words but certainly in your ear) of harmony, and of the harmony of your song, to be able to solo correctly to it. There are many audible cues to help so you don't necessarily need to be able to describe what's happening - it can become 2nd nature - but yes, get to grips with some favourite solos and see what's happening to the harmony and the tune.

Nikko

Thanks everyone for taking the time. Appreciated.

I know I have a lot to learn, and im bloody impatient!

GuyBoden

IMHO you've got to spend some practice time training your ears to recognise harmony.............

Most players start by recognising the sound of basic intervals and then the basic triads, then basic chords: minor, Major, Dom, then whole progressions.......

If you can hear the harmony, it's much easier to hear what notes will sound good with the harmony...........

Can you listen to a simple song and hear each chord type?

Nikko

I wouldnt say im completely happy with aspect, no. I can spot some very simple changes, but still have a lot to learn. I started lessons in October, and its only a short while ago I realised I have to listen to music differently than I have my whole life up to this point. Its quite a big adjustment for me, as im sure you can appreciate.

Thanks again for the replies Gents.

axisus

The good thing with pentatonics is that you just need to know the key (or work it out, it's often easy to do so) then you can just noodle away and pretty much every note fits.

Nikko

Cheers. My tutor gave me a pointer last night on working out the key of the song im listening to. Ill be giving it a try this week.

57Deluxe

TIP: When unsighted - Always do a slide into the first note, that way you can quickly ascertain the scale position. If you hit the wrong note do it again(!) and then slip up 1 fret


Seems to have worked for Clapton all his career...