Klone Army

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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2329
    edited August 2013
    I've just heard some people say that they're definitely built to a price. And fair few seemed to be DOA (none of mine, luckily).

    Also there's the whole psychological thing- if it did die in the gig, you'd feel you'd cheaped out and deserved it. Or if you were getting paid and the person paying you said, "You're using pro quality gear, right?" it'd be hard to answer with a straight face. Admittedly, neither of those means that the joyo was at fault, and a more expensive pedal could have broken in the same way, too.

    But I'd definitely agree that, as opposed to guitars and amps/cabs, pedals are the place to cheap out if you have to. A £25 pedal is an awful lot better than a £25 guitar or amp, lol.
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  • juansolojuansolo Frets: 1773
    It's because it's mass produced in China. Simple as that. It just isn't possible to compete with that as a small outfit or hobbyist. As for the electronic components on the board, they're by far the cheapest parts. Getting the board itself fabbed, the hardware and the finishing is what costs the money. Again not counting time.

    Same goes for amps. To this day I have no idea how the small boutique amp builders make any money out of it. Component cost may not be that high, but the sheer amount of labour involved in making one just means that they're making f**k all on them in real terms. Again, they're not going to be able to compete in price with anything that's MIC. As just about everything is now.
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  • randomhandclapsrandomhandclaps Frets: 20521
    edited August 2013

    It's quite funny when people say that companies like Joyo cheap out on parts in a circuit like a Tubescreamer etc.  To small builders a metal film resistor can be sourced for 4p as opposed to 3p for a carbon film and so on with other components.  If you wish to purchase in bulk from the far east (where Joyos obviously come from) you can get compnents even cheaper and that is still with the suppliers making a profit. 

    The savings, like most of the world's cheap products, is made on man-power. 

    Do I think they are worth £29.99? Absolutely.

    Having opened up quite a few though, they are poorly and obviously chain soldered.  A few also had rust on the boards and components - this may be caused by the salty tears of the construction children.  The other thing is quite a few were obviously re-worked after having components wrongly inserted which being PCB usually leaves some damage.  Having said that, if yours works, what's the problem.

    My muse is not a horse and art is not a race.
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 26754

    The savings, like most of the world's cheap products, is made on man-power. 

    Do I think they are worth £29.99? Absolutely.

    Having opened up quite a few though, they are poorly and obviously chain soldered.  A few also had rust on the boards and components - this may be caused by the salty tears of the construction children.  The other thing is quite a few were obviously re-worked after having components wrongly inserted which being PCB usually leaves some damage.  Having said that, if yours works, what's the problem.

    :D
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2329

    Having opened up quite a few though, they are poorly and obviously chain soldered.  A few also had rust on the boards and components - this may be caused by the salty tears of the construction children.  The other thing is quite a few were obviously re-worked after having components wrongly inserted which being PCB usually leaves some damage. 

    Yeah that's what I meant.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    edited August 2013
    EdGrip said:
    image

    Tantalum cap and the same red caps you find in Wampler and Catalinbread pedals, low-noise metal film resistors, neat through-hole construction, solid box.... this is up there with any Zvex or Catalinbread, simple as that. There is no reason not to gig with one.

    Except that on that one the jacks are visibly badly soldered which could easily lead to it cutting out mid-song. (OK, I know I could fix that pre-emptively but not everyone can.) I've had a couple to repair with broken switches so far too, and one with a dead LED.

    For those reasons I would still prefer to use an Ibanez or whatever that's built better and uses a better switching system even if it uses the exact same components in the signal path. The Joyos are excellent value for money but to say they're the same quality as the big Japanese or Taiwanese-made brands is stretching things.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ICBM said:
     
     The Joyos are excellent value for money but to say they're the same quality as the big Japanese or Taiwanese-made brands is stretching things.

    Yes, have to agree that the quality comparison ends at the board components.  Then when you consider the price of really good jacks, pots and switches and the fact you are paying £30 then it shouldn't surprise anyone.  

    My muse is not a horse and art is not a race.
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  • EdGripEdGrip Frets: 736
    All very true, and good point about the jacks!

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  • shobetshobet Frets: 180
    I quite like the way my Les Luis sounds... ;) 
    Do ursus deposit feculence in the thicket?

    Here endeth the lesson. 
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11414
    Was it JHS who stopped production of their Klone when the KTR came out?

    I think it's one thing cloning something that is not available but to clone something that is in production for commercial profit??

    The other thing I was thinking is when you get a "higher quality" clone of a circuit.  There are boutique builders with marketing along the lines of This is pedal X as it should be without any corners cut.

    I've got a Microamp build at home which uses much more expensive components than the bog standard MXR one.  I originally built it because of the tone suck switching of the original which drove me up the wall.  When I went to order the components I went for higher quality components.  I guess someone could sell something like this commercially as an "improved" Microamp.



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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27590
    I think there's a fine line; if you don't acknowledge that you've built a clone then people are angry when they find out. If you do, people are angry that you're using the reputation of the original to sell your copy.

    I've never been happy with cloning; while my pedals were related to classic designs none were clones, and all were more than a few extra ohms here or a few picofarads less there.

    The other problem, which I've mentioned before, is that a lot of the cloners have a day job that subsidises their pedalmaking and makes those doing it for a living look like they're ripping people off. If all the pedalbuilders charged the same for their time as they make at work things would be very different.
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2329
    Sporky said:
    I think there's a fine line; if you don't acknowledge that you've built a clone then people are angry when they find out. If you do, people are angry that you're using the reputation of the original to sell your copy.
    Yeah that's the big problem- either way someone is annoyed. I'd rather they were up-front about what it is- but obviously that's me with my "consumer" hat on. If I had designed the original I may feel differently. :))

    I suppose (and this is me just thinking out loud here, I could change my opinion in 5 minutes' time) you could make the argument that by not admitting it's a clone, you could well be duping consumers. Whereas at least being up-front, you're not (and if the original were such a groundbreaking design it'd have been patented, so cloning in most instances isn't illegal, so long as you're not using their pcb design and trademarks etc.).

    Then again I suppose you could claim that making a clone and not admitting it is one probably isn't illegal either, so :-?
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  • What was that relatively recent "best drive in the world" pedal (typically, a low to medium gain transparent thing) that was made in Japan in a brass enclosure?

    You know, the timmy clone for 400 quid or whatever it was.

    It's a joke. I won't buy, for example, a fuzz face. There are so few components in it, I got them for around 25 quid with enclosure and built my own. Didn't even take long. And it's in a proper case, not a daft massive circle!

    But this is what annoys me more than cloning. I mean, if I get a mooer or joyo it's okay - components are poorer. Pots might get scratchy quicker and the switch will almost certainly fail sooner. It's built to budget, but ideal for me. On the other hand, if I'm gigging, I'd likely try to get v2 visual sound pedals for the amazing reliability.

    Freekish blues wasn't just that one pedal. They had a fuzz and some other bits, all just joyo or other pedals in a new enclosure. Such a nut.
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2329
    ^ vemuram jan ray :))
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27590
    It's a joke. I won't buy, for example, a fuzz face. There are so few components in it, I got them for around 25 quid with enclosure and built my own. Didn't even take long. And it's in a proper case, not a daft massive circle! 
    But you're not just paying for the components - a pile of sand and some lumps of copper and aluminium maketh not a pedal. The biggest cost is probably the assembly, and you did that yourself. That's fine by me, but if you'd worked out the time taken and compared that with what you earn per hour at work then the "real" FF might look better value.

    When it's a hobby and you enjoy doing it then factoring in the cost of time is arguably a bit silly, but for all the people who turn the hobby into a paying hobby it massively distorts the end price because (as I've said before) the pedals are subsidised by your day-job employer.
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27590
    Which reminds me... on the subject of expensive pedals, I ordered one of those ones that were all shiny and had beautiful lead dress and so on - can't remember the name. I was well aware that the price of the finished article was around ten times the cost of the bits, but I was also aware of just how much work went into making something to that level of quality.

    As it happened they turned out to be a bunch of lying, incompetent, workshy twits and I got my money back, but I'm not sure that's the point. :D
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • randomhandclapsrandomhandclaps Frets: 20521
    edited September 2013

    The Fuzz Face isn't really a great example as it's not an 'insert components A-G and get a great sounding fuzz' circuit.  Hence that's why you don't get companies like Joyo mass producing great sounding Fuzz Faces using unskilled labourers.

    Have a look at any DIY pedal site and you will see folks pleased with their home-made modded tubescreamer circuits with bass boost and clipping options whilst tearing their hair out over the nine components in a Fuzz Face.

     

    The Fuzz Face circuit is more on a soufflé than a pot noodle.

    My muse is not a horse and art is not a race.
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27590
    But for someone like Joyo, matching pairs of transistors wouldn't be an expensive proposition. Just employ someone at 10p an hour and give them a component tester...
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    edited September 2013
    Anyone can build a fuzz face but not many people are great shakes at matching the transistors, biasing them, selecting good quality parts and sourcing good pcb materials.

    Germanium transistors sold in ones and twos can be of suspect provenance.
    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2329
    Sporky said:
    But you're not just paying for the components - a pile of sand and some lumps of copper and aluminium maketh not a pedal. The biggest cost is probably the assembly, and you did that yourself. That's fine by me, but if you'd worked out the time taken and compared that with what you earn per hour at work then the "real" FF might look better value.

    When it's a hobby and you enjoy doing it then factoring in the cost of time is arguably a bit silly, but for all the people who turn the hobby into a paying hobby it massively distorts the end price because (as I've said before) the pedals are subsidised by your day-job employer.
    Taking that point from the other way of looking at it, it sometimes annoys me when people who enjoy DIY/making things act like those who don't are lazy when they're willing to pay for someone else to do it for them. If you enjoy it, that's great, but not everyone does.

    Don't get me wrong, it can go too far and you can rip the ass out of it (and there are a bunch of chancers, too), but yeah I agree that if something is genuinely made well (and designed well), then it's worth (far) more than the cost of the parts.
    Sporky said:
    Which reminds me... on the subject of expensive pedals, I ordered one of those ones that were all shiny and had beautiful lead dress and so on - can't remember the name. I was well aware that the price of the finished article was around ten times the cost of the bits, but I was also aware of just how much work went into making something to that level of quality.

    As it happened they turned out to be a bunch of lying, incompetent, workshy twits and I got my money back, but I'm not sure that's the point. :D
    LOL
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