Ebay guitar ‘traders’/flippers

kos5150

Seems like more and more of these types are cropping up nowadays and I’m wondering what many of you guys think, considering that a lot of you seem to be honest working musicians who use guitars as tools as opposed to investments. I’ve had a couple of run-in’s this past year with these sorts.

The first one was a guy who I sold a guitar to for £750. It was listed at £900 (both on eBay and Gumtree) but the guy pleaded poverty and seemed genuine enough, so I figured a sale was a sale and let it go. 7 or 8 hours later it’s on ebay for twice what I’d sold it to him for! The kicker was that it somehow actually sold, even though I’d listed it myself recently with good pics, description, feedback,  etc.

The second one was this past week, I was looking for a strat and found a nice looking Japanese one on Gumtree for £300. I e-mail the guy asking if it was still for sale and if so I’ll come and pick it up. He says that someone is going that night to have a look so he’ll let me know how it goes. The next day I see the exact same guitar relisted: £450! (Just noticed it’s on ebay too: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1996-Fender-MIJ-50th-Anniversary-Stratocaster-Candy-Apple-Red-FUJI-GEN-/271342856112?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3f2d4b67b0 )

So what is your take on it? Fair game? Scummy practices? Bit of both?

Personally it makes me glad that the quality of lower end guitars is increasing. I’d rather buy an Epiphone or a Squier and not get involved. I can’t help but feel bad for people (including myself! ) ) when I see it happen though.

jd0272

If I buy a guitar that's described honestly and for a price I'm happy to pay (taking into account I've a decent knowledge of what it should be worth) them I'm happy.

If I sell a guitar having described it honestly, and for a price that's reasonable, then I'm happy.

What ever the new owner decides to do with it is up to them sale/price wise really. As long as they're being honest and open.

That's the 'ideal' however......

octatonic

It can work the other way too. I sold a fender Jaguar (jap) for £450 to one of these guys. He tried selling it for £690 and it sat around on gumtree for a year unsold.

ToneControl

just normal people trying to make an extra income buying and selling second hand guitars, this has always happened for everything: cars, antiques, my friend used to run an antique clothes store, buy them from all over and sell them on.  

I had guys knock my prices down in the 90s from Loot adverts, at least with eBay you don't get tyre kickers spending 2 hours round your house talking down the price of your gear. Very frustrating if someone makes money out of you, although tbh I'm baffled how anyone can manage to sell it on at a profit immediately, you would expect buyers to search completed listings like I do.

So I say fair game, if their subsequent sale has an honest description

kos5150

jd0272 said:

If I sell a guitar having described it honestly, and for a price that's reasonable, then I'm happy.

Yeah, that was my thinking when that guy flipped mine. I got back pretty much what I'd paid for it and it paid a bill that I needed to get rid of so I figured what the hell. It was an eye-opener though, the sheer cheek of what transpired was something to behold!

guitarfishbay

Once you've agreed your price to sell and the deal is completed then it is the buyer's property to do with as they please.

The legal issue may be that some people who do this are treating flipping gear as a source of income then not declaring it to the tax man. There are some people doing this and they are basically dealers who are not playing the game fairly. Not only are they skipping out on declaring income tax they're also not collecting the VAT on used equipment. Very tough to prove this though.

OilCityPickups

I've very occasionally had a cheeky punt on something that looks 'nice' but is going for silly money. I've even looked at the contents of the 'penny pot' and made an offer based on that (fat penny pot ). Now if I have to say ... I'm too much of a gear hound to kick nice kit straight back out the door ... but tomorrow, or next week, or next year, once I have paid for it it is my property to dispose of as I wish ... at a profit or not.
I understand what guitarfishbay has said about tax issues ... but I doubt many of these 'flippers' are more than 'pin money' makers. On the other hand I've owned a music shop ... and heard the streams of vitriol from the odd 'customers' who you have given a fair price for their instruments ... then haven't liked what they've appeared in the window for next day. Wanting to make a profit is a business instinct present in most of us to a degree - lets all get over it.

p90fool

I'd be doing this myself if I was any good at trading, but I'm crap at it. Although music is my biggest source of income, my wife and I still have four part-time jobs between us, so although I sympathise with your indignation, times are tough, good luck to them.

GuitarMonkey

On the open market I don't have a problem as it's fair game.

There was however one guy on the old forum who bought at knock down prices in the classifieds and sold on eBay at considerable profit. I did think that was exploiting the good nature of forumites and when I picked him up on it I received quite a, er, firm dm from him. 

Iamnobody

The way I see it if a guitar advertised cheap in the free ads or smack converters etc & someone with knowledge of the market buys it and flips it on eBay for a tidy profit that's fair enough. (Not withstanding the tax issues previously mentioned).

However if some twat comes to my house and beats me up on the price with a sob story then flips it within 8 hours I'd be pissed off. As much with myself for falling for it!

Although as a seller you should know the market value of what you are selling and set the price accordingly...

There is a chap on EBay who I've mentioned before who usually bids around £1050 for Les Pauls. Then flips them for £1300-£1500 with lots of pretty pictures and a load of waffle. I've missed a few and lost out to him.

Oh well!

jonnyburgo

Just how it goes, I bought a Guitar for £250 and sold it a month later for £360, nothing wrong with that at all. It can go either way with ebay, somebody was selling Bugera V22's for about £500 a while ago. Pretty sure they wouldnt have sold any.  Im not sure whats going on with some sellers. I hate ebay, 15% fees now between them and paypal.

ToneControl

guitarfishbay said:

Once you've agreed your price to sell and the deal is completed then it is the buyer's property to do with as they please.

The legal issue may be that some people who do this are treating flipping gear as a source of income then not declaring it to the tax man. There are some people doing this and they are basically dealers who are not playing the game fairly. Not only are they skipping out on declaring income tax they're also not collecting the VAT on used equipment. Very tough to prove this though.

there's a lot of minor traders, I'd feel bad shopping them, but it is undeclared income 

The VAT issue is fine: you need to sell £79k a year to be legally required to charge VAT, a good reason for small dealers/shops to do sales on consignment / commission, rather than buying and selling themselves. Lots of people try to avoid going over this threshold because of course it makes you less competitive

OilCityPickups

'...That means we need to support, reward and celebrate enterprise, .... that requires a fundamental culture change in our country. A culture that’s on the side of those who work hard, that values that typically British, entrepreneurial, buccaneering spirit ...'
David Cameron

Now lets see ... buccaneers were pirates right? Went about robbing people ... not paying their taxes ... that sort of thing?
Dave loves 'flippers'

p90fool

I pay 20p in VAT every time I spend a pound, and spend around half my income on fuel and wine, which is taxed at what, 60%?

How and where I earn my money is my affair quite frankly, the cunts still get their cut.

OilCityPickups

p90fool said:

I pay 20p in VAT every time I spend a pound, and spend around half my income on fuel and wine, which is taxed at what, 60%?

How and where I earn my money is my affair quite frankly, the cunts still get their cut.

Agreed to the bloody hilt!

usedtobe

Some people are greedy assholes, who place the accumulation of wealth above pretty much all else.. You're the better man. Be glad!

jd0272

p90fool;101736" said:

I pay 20p in VAT every time I spend a pound, and spend around half my income on fuel and wine, which is taxed at what, 60%?



How and where I earn my money is my affair quite frankly, the cunts still get their cut.

Fuel and wine. Made my morning matey!

£110 pw in diesel and I don't work in sales, ffs. Then there's the gin.

Chuffola

I've bought a few guitars on gumtree that were listed cheap, or needed a bit or work with the express intention of fixing them up and flipping on.

Not to supplement my income but to increase my GAS fund!

I don't see any issue with this at all. Its entirely up to the seller to try and get a price he's happy with and once I've paid, I can do what I like with it.

Obviously, I'm not running this as a business but if, for example, I see a Mex Strat listed for £180 and I think I can clean it up and sell it on for £250 then I'm investing a bit of time in that and can sell for what I like, if I can get a buyer.

Its a hobby of sorts. I wouldn't ever try to rip someone off or plead poverty though. But I always try to offer less than the item is listed for and see what happens. When I come to sell, I always list higher than my target sale price - I presume most people do this?

Different if I was listing something on the classifieds here, though. 

Bogwhoppit

I give you Adam Smith and the 'Wealth of Nations'....or simply : Free Trade vs Mercantilism...

If I sell an item, I set a price on my terms, if the buyer accepts those terms then he/she can do what they want with it. Car dealers and property developers have been flipping for years.  I suppose you could call me an offset flipper. I sold all the guitars at a profit that I'd bought many years earlier.

bertie

kos5150 said:

So what is your take on it? 

Fair game? 

this,   buying and selling (to non acquaintances) is no more than just business.   

QED

IanSavage

Fuel and wine.