Modes – when to use??

axisus

 

Ok through mind over matter, the sacrifice of three local stray cats and a book of mystical monk incantations read backwards, I have gained knowledge of all the notes all over the fretboard in all the modes. As a guitarist who has always been totally inept at all things theory, I have no clue at all how to use this information. I have a couple of questions:

 

1)      How does one know when to use a given mode? I imagine that it requires an ear for music that I do not possess! At the moment I just look for a backing track called something like “G Lydian backing track”

2)      Do you modal players switch modes according to the prevalent chord at the time, or do you more or less stick to just the one?

3)      By and large, my modal type improv sounds like I’m just playing the blues scale in the wrong key! slight exaggeration – but it’s more ‘bluesy’ than others get out of the scale. Maybe I’m just going too much for the obvious bending. I’d like to get more of a satch/vai vibe out of say Lydian. Any pointers?

frankus

Starting with the usual caveat that if you ask 2 guitarists you'll get three opinions.

The biggest consideration is how often are you changing chords:

If it's something with a drone of one chord all the way through or two chords then you can use the relative approach to modes - it's a C major chord so try C ionian, C lydian, C mixolydian ... C lydian dominant... rinse repeat.

If it's a jazz tune with changes every other beat then you're not going to be able to do that kind of math (and it is math) fast enough. In this approach you can say I'm playing in the key of C major therefore the notes of Dm7 (the ii chord) are exactly the same as the notes for the (I chord) only the emphasis is different.

In some jazz tunes you'll probably find ii V I progressions so Dm7->G7->Cmaj6 for example. The chord tones dictate to an extent where the pull is for the scale.. you could try to play "D minor pentatonic with a major si... fucks sake then a G super locrian for ...fuck fuck change quicker!! C ionian..." - you could do the Joe Pass thing... start playing the G super locrian over the Dm7 as it foretells what's coming and that's great story telling... also it strengthens the resolution.

Essentially mixolydian is a laconic sound, ionian is happy sounding (although sad songs can be written in it) and lydian is just fucking awful - it's been raped to death and then some by douches with 80s hair-do... dorian is a little darker than the mixolydian and Carlos Santander owns the aeolian mode - you can't use it without sounding clichéd, I think some thrash band bought up the phrygian and locrian modes.

Ultimately modes are sounds not patterns, learn the sounds and you can invoke them on any instrument and understand their meaning to you...

If you're playing over a chord - that chord should serve as the basis for the scale you're chosing to play over it (or chord fragment if you dig harmonic extensions instead) G7 -> G B D F so fill the gaps as you deem suitable. There's also the concept of offsets so B D F A might sound like a melodic set of notes... or E G B D or well you get the picture - the point is scales have lots of notes and it seems odd that people want to use all of them

Fusionista

Like you, I'm at the 'suck it and see' stage.  I just try out various modes and see what works.  Got that idea originally from Andy Summers who on his instructional DVD (video in the day) talked about using "mixed modes" in his solo for 'Big Thing'.

xHymnal

Modes have the same notes as whatever major or minor scale you're using, so really they're no different. They sound tonally different but they are the same notes played in different places..

Axe_meister

I take the following approach.
If I just have basic major triads in my chord progression I choose a major mode with the tonality that fits the song and then follow the chords,G major scale over a G, D major scale over the D. Now if your chords have 7ths rather than Major 7ths the scale choices become more limited (So I end up following major chords with the mixalodian).
Likewise with minor chord progressions. Any chord extensions will point you to certain scales. I.e a b9 on a minor chord will point you towards a phrygian scale.
Now when you get major and minor chords in your progression it becomes a little more complicated so you may want to prep a little before hand. So if you have E followed by F#m you could play an E Major scale followed by F# Dorian (same notes but different emphasis).
Jazz guys don't usually think modes. They think chords and hone in on chord tones with loads of passing notes.
My old guitar teacher used to play over a blues progression and use all 12 notes, but the emphasis was on the chord tones. It never sounded wrong.

djl

I think of modes as just one of many ways of remembering the relationship between the melody and harmony that you're playing over. They're really handy for guitarists because once you've learned them in one key, you've effectively learned them in any key.

Just remember that you've got the basic chord tones (1st, 3rd, 5th) and then extensions (7th, 9th etc....). Different modes have different combinations of the various notes, either flattened or sharpened. Depending on what underlying chord you're playing over, the notes will either sound "right" or "wrong" (dissonant). If you play a dorian mode over a minor chord, nearly all the notes sound right. If you play dorian over a dominant chord, the minor 3rd will sound dissonant.

The mode you choose to play in a given situation is based on whether you want it to sound harmonious or dissonant. Eg in jazz if you play over s 2-5-1 progression, what a lot of players will do is choose a mode over the 5 chord to sound dissonant (eg one with b9, b3rd etc) and then switch to a mode on the 1 chord which sounds more harmonious, to create a sort of tension and resolution effect. You can hear this sort of idea in every sort of music. 

There's no right or wrong. If you want to learn the basic modes, then a good place to start is dorian mode over a minor chord, mixolydian over a b7 chord, and ionian or lydian over a major chord. This will give you a good starting point

Jalapeno

Unless a tune has a static harmony (Might be the worng term, but I mean stays in a key) Modal thinking is pretty useless as Frank observed - the music simply goes by far too fast to do much more than:

a. Play by Ear
b. Play the Arpeggio (perhaps swapping the ii & V7 Arps for shits'n'giggles)
c. Play from the root scale (ie. the I in a ii V7 I)
d. Play a known lick

Modes are far more useful for describing for what you're about to play or just played

axisus

Some great knowledge here but ........ I'm baffled!?! As soon as any theory goes 'technical' it's like people are speaking in tongues, 3 miles over my head. I just can't seem to relate at all, it's almost like musical dyslexia.

Having said that, I'm not giving up! I'll be reading through all posts a few more times.

viz

The 7 modes in the diatonic scale are called modes because they can each be derived from all the others simply by beginning at a different starting point. But in actual fact if we are not talking about them purely in terms of other modes, we shouldn't call them modes. They are scales. They have a unique arrangement of tones and semitones.

songs tend to be written in one of these scales. Greensleeves is written in dorian. Flying in a blue dream is written in lydian. Gates of Babylon is written in Phrygian. Most rock is written in mixolydian or aeolian, or its "amodal" - it doesn't have the defining 2 modal notes out of the 7, it just uses the other 5 in the scale - it's pentatonic.

so you are right - you find a tune or vamp or backing track in a certain scale and noodle to it.

carlos

Some great replies so far, let me see if I can add something. 

1)      Modes are combination of notes and intervals. We modal players (not sure what this means it's just a tool!) pick the mode that has the right combination of the notes for a given harmony (chord being played by other instruments or at least implied by other instruments). If the harmony is not very well defined, like say just a drone of a single note, then anything goes. In that case it's important to have an idea of how each mode sounds. In general for diatonic modes, i.e. the ones derived from the major scale (Ionian mode), they go from brightest to darkest: Lydian (major with raised 4), Ionian, Mixolydian (flat 7), Dorian (like major but flat 3rd and flat 7), Aeolian (flat 3rd, flat 6th and flat 7), Phrygian (flat 2nd, flat 3rd, flat 6th, flat 7), Locrian (flat 2, 3, 5, 6, 7). Better way to learn them is to practice them loads especially over a drone. Say play a G and loop it then play g lydian, g ionian, etc. Do this regularly until you can hear the raised 4th of a lydian.

2)      Depends. Some chords define what mode should be used more than others. For instance a G7 chord is GBDF. The only mode that has those notes is G Mixolydian but for example the Lydian Dominant mode (5th mode of the melodic minor scale) also has those notes. The difference is that G mixo has a normal 4th and G Lydian Dominant has a raised 4th. If you want a slightly different sound you can use Lydian Dom for example. There are literally HUNDREDS of possible modes and note combinations. The more you know the more options you have.

3)      Playing modes is not a magic bullet to sounding like somebody else. To sound like Satch you need to do his legato and whammy bar and play some of his lines. Reason your Lydian playing sounds like the blues scale is because the blue note is the same as the unique note of the lydian scale, i.e. b5 = #4. Less bends more hammer ons and pull offs, transcribe some satch stuff maybe.

I think this class from Gary Burton on modes is very good and comprehensive. I think it's fairly beginner-ish but let me know if you get lost. Lots of knowledge in this forum.

carlos

If you want we can do a video call on this. Free as I'm not a guitar teacher or anything

Catthan

It's a strange topic this one though the principal behind it is rather simple.

Assuming there are shortcuts in guitar playing/ learning (there aren't really imho) you can take Guthrie's approach:

There's a A minor chord which you can play the 5tonic scale right? If you want to add smth look at the minor sounding modes.

The easiest are dorian and Aeolian. Imagine you have a fader switch going from 5tonic to Modal. this means you can add an F# in your 5tonic run (Dorian). Or a plain F (Aeolian-Minor scale). That's an easy way to approach it at first. As you learn your ears and mind will associate chords with modes etc etc. 

You need to know though what each modes gives you as not all ,say, minor modes are interchangeable..

Hope this adds smth useful.

Atb,

axisus

Thanks for the offer @georgenadaintl - most generous, but as an old school human being I really can't seem to cope with video conferencing, something about it is just too weird and uncomfortable for me. My best friend moved to America 13 years ago and I've never done the skype thing!

Thanks all for the input everyone, I shall see what I can make of it!

daveww

The modes are the same as a the major scales or their relative minor.  They just tend to start, or resolve, on a different note.  The note you resolve on gives each mode its distinctive sound.  Before you learn modes learn major scale harmony to show what chords usually go with what key.  When you know that you can make up chord progression in a given key starting on the second, third, etc chord usually leaving out the 1st chord.  You can then solo using the scale for the given key but tending to resolve on the chord you return to.

It's pretty simple when you get your head around it.  Easier to show or demonstrate than explain.  But I'd stress understanding major scale harmony first.

frankus

daveww said:

The modes are the same as a the major scales or their relative minor.  They just tend to start, or resolve, on a different note.  The note you resolve on gives each mode its distinctive sound.  Before you learn modes learn major scale harmony to show what chords usually go with what key.  When you know that you can make up chord progression in a given key starting on the second, third, etc chord usually leaving out the 1st chord.  You can then solo using the scale for the given key but tending to resolve on the chord you return to.

It's pretty simple when you get your head around it.  Easier to show or demonstrate than explain.  But I'd stress understanding major scale harmony first.

That's the derivative approach to modes - using diatonic keys.

Also there's the relative approach. I'll try and contrast below:

Derivative: playing over Dminor in the key of C - using the notes of C major you'll be playing D Dorian.

Relative: playing over Dminor in the key of C some of the many options you have are to play D dorian, D aeolian (a little darker), D phrygian (darker), D mixolydian (works some times)...

viz

Agree with Frankus, and the derivative approach is good for understanding the relationship between modal scales; and the relative approach (I would call it the melodic approach) is good for writing interesting melodies over a major or minor chord structure. Don't quite understand how mixolydian would work over a minor chord unless temporarily in order to build tension that would resolve to Dorian.

Jalapeno

viz said:

 Don't quite understand how mixolydian would work over a minor chord unless temporarily in order to build tension that would resolve to Dorian.

Try playing (V)Myxolydian over the minor & (ii)Dorian over the V7 in a ii/V7/1 - sounds great ! (or play Dorian over both or Myxolydian over both)

Though admittedly arpeggios sound a lot better (V over ii and vice versa)

viz

Oh absolutely, I meant playing Mixolydian in the tonic minor.

frankus

I'd say any note fits over any chord in any bar - all that changes is where it can be emphasised... it's why I only use modes as a means of communicating without using music (which is the superior means of communicating these ideas .. as sounds)

viz

No I know, I misunderstood you soz

sted

Modes are only relevant to the harmony anyway, playing one of the modes on its own without any chordal backing is pointless, as pointed out they basically are the same notes played from a different starting point. Once you have your chordal backing then modes begin to make sense as you are using them to introduce harmony.

I did study theory for a while but it's like anything, the more you learn, the more you realise how much you still don't know, the best advice I can give to anyone is to experiment with modal "Flavour" over your pentatonic licks, (every guitarist must know all the five pentatonic positions) for instance if you have a minor sounding backing track then look at introducing elements of the Aeolian and Dorian, Dorian is also great with blues, major sounding pieces look at Mixo etc.

It gets complicated when you have constant key modulations, most rock music (Which most guitarists play!) tends to stick with a key centre so is easy to noodle over, changing key centre and the mode you are targeting, well, thats why the Jazz boys are up there with the best.