Just recovered from reading about an expensive pedal

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  • juansolojuansolo Frets: 1773
    edited December 2013
    It's been done - some guy on the thread has made clones of it, and is taking orders.

    It's painful to watch - blatant stealing. Which, of course, supports the theory it's just a slightly tweaked clone of something else. Otherwise, surely they'd feel some guilt at cloning?

    Nice work btw @juansolo.
    The ethics of cloning is a really surprisingly complex subject that there doesn't seem to be any real conclusion to.

    Most ODs and fuzzes are clones of something else with a few tweaks. So is it ok to make a clone of something that's already essentially a clone? The same can be said for amplifiers that are essentially tweaked Fenders/Marshalls.

    When something is original and the originator is out there trying to make his living out of it, then yeah, that's taking the piss. However what if that originator is an arsehole who won't actually sell things to you even if you want to buy them, leaving you with the only option of the 2nd hand market at stupidly inflated prices...

    Tis a very nuanced and difficult thing ethically. I have my own rules. I won't make anything for anyone that's currently in-production and available at non-pisstaking money. Though I'm flexible if the builder is an arsehole ;)

    However the hypocrisy kicks in when I make a muff, fuzz face, etc. How can it be morally right just because they're a big company? I mean I try to offer something that they aren't (one offs, custom jobs, etc), but it's still ethically suspect in an arena of stompboxes where LOTs of the players are just as guilty. Not just the boutiquers either, some big companies are proper bastards for it.

    As I say, it's a minefield.

    As for the Dumbloid. I REALLY can't be arsed. It reeks of a shoddily/cheaply made clone to me. The goop pretty much nails it on, as it's purpose is to hide the nature of the circuit. I can't think of many times that's to protect the genius of the new original circuit... Stick some shit Dymo labels on, give it a name that evokes some mythical (also bullshit) other piece of kit, stick a huge price tag on it, release only a few out into the wild then ride the hype train. The TGP crowd lap that shit up.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    juansolo said:
    As for the Dumbloid. I REALLY can't be arsed. It reeks of a shoddily/cheaply made clone to me. The goop pretty much nails it on, as it's purpose is to hide the nature of the circuit. I can't think of many times that's to protect the genius of the new original circuit... Stick some shit Dymo labels on, give it a name that evokes some mythical (also bullshit) other piece of kit, stick a huge price tag on it, release only a few out into the wild then ride the hype train. The TGP crowd lap that shit up.
    The only thing the name evokes for me is something beginning with H and which is also associated with shit.


    I agree with your other points too.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • EdGripEdGrip Frets: 736
    It's full of the kind of people who buy a $600 Tubescreamer and then get angry when someone shows them it's a Tubescreamer.

    I'm assuming this is on FSB by now?
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  • juansolojuansolo Frets: 1773
    I doubt they really care to be honest. The Klon had interest and was de-gooped because it was something new (OD with clean blend). So they were curious to how it worked. This just appears to be another coat-tail rider of some sort and of little to no interest.

    I guarantee however that the new EHX OD will be traced very shortly. It's just too interesting not to. It's the thought it might be a klone which is too intriguing, also the fact that due to their track record, it probably isn't and might be something genuinely new. I'm really looking forward to seeing what that is.
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  • EdGripEdGrip Frets: 736
    I always thought that part of the fun of being FSB was occasionally turning up on TGP going "Aahhahahahaha! Your latest emperor is naked! And we've got photos! Ahahahahaha! Wankers!". 
    I had assumed that this was a natural part of the regular de-gooping process there. ^_^
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  • ICBM;111772" said:
    juansolo said:As for the Dumbloid. I REALLY can't be arsed. It reeks of a shoddily/cheaply made clone to me. The goop pretty much nails it on, as it's purpose is to hide the nature of the circuit. I can't think of many times that's to protect the genius of the new original circuit... Stick some shit Dymo labels on, give it a name that evokes some mythical (also bullshit) other piece of kit, stick a huge price tag on it, release only a few out into the wild then ride the hype train. The TGP crowd lap that shit up.The only thing the name evokes for me is something beginning with H and which is also associated with shit.



    I agree with your other points too.
    All of the above.

    I always said that zvex pedals were worth the cash because they are all individually hand finished beautifully. Okay, it's only a pedal, but that does go some way to explaining the cost. But a label maker, shite knobs and crap tolexing does not a boutique pedal make.

    Except it does.
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  • juansolojuansolo Frets: 1773
    The shitter the better. Stick an Electra Distortion in a box. Buy a random rubber stamp from a craft shop, wrap it in the floweriest marketing bullshit known to man and taadaa, insta-worship.
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  • juansolo;111926" said:
    The shitter the better. Stick an Electra Distortion in a box. Buy a random rubber stamp from a craft shop, wrap it in the floweriest marketing bullshit known to man and taadaa, insta-worship.
    Wisdom awarded!

    So they've cloned it and been questioned the ethics of TGP members pooling resources to degoop it, then cloning it, then selling it cheaper.

    The response is basically... Boutique builders clone classic guitar designs all the time. Lol they are so... *sigh* it's impossible to reason with people like that.
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2328
    edited December 2013
    juansolo said:
    Dave_Mc said:
    I'm actually sceptical that the EHX one is a klone... I could be wrong of course. But they name check it so much, yet don't actually say it's a klone, which makes me wonder if it's not a different circuit (entirely possibly a clone of something else) which sounds similar to the klon.
    I'm with you on that. EHX are innovators not cloners. It'd likely be a first for them if it was a clone. Indeed they're usually on the receiving end of cloning. After the tube screamer I bet the next most cloned circuit is the muff.

    On that subject, I had a friend over recently trying out a load of ODs. I plugged one in and didn't tell him what it was, he really liked it. Sometimes, it's just the box, pretty pictures or knowing what it is that colours your opinion of a pedal. It was a bone stock tube screamer.
    Yeah, that's a good point.

    Though didn't they do an od pedal recently which sounds remarkably similar to a tubescreamer? Admittedly that was just forum surmising, I'm not sure if it's been reversed yet or not, or even if anyone has tried it. The description sure does sound like a tubescreamer, though of course it could be anything. (It's the east river drive, I think.)

    Also some of the features they were mentioning on the soul food did sound very klon-like. Of course, it's not impossible that they've added similar features to a different circuit.

    I'll wait to see what it is before doing anything. :)) I agree with you, I'm very interested to see what it is. Either way, it's pretty much win-win- if it's a sensibly-priced klone, awesome. If it's something new which sounds good, also awesome. I suppose it could also be a clone of something else, but as you said, hopefully with EHX's track record it won't be.

    I also agree with you about the complexity of the whole cloning issue. I pretty much agree with your stance on the subject (except I don't make pedals :)) ). However, I don't have much time for the black-and-white brigade (or worse, the hypocrite brigade who cry foul when someone makes a cheap clone but who lap up expensive clones). It's fairly complex, and oversimplifying (or worse, just being an idiot and shouting loudly and/or namecalling) rarely adds anything to the debate.
    juansolo said:
    Dave_Mc said:
    ^^Aw go on. I always think "I'll be the bigger man and stay out of it" and that lasts for about a day.

    ^ Thanks. Yeah I thought i'd seen you selling some smaller ones on the bkp classifieds forum. I couldn't build a basic pedal in a massive case, lol.
    Yup it's my old one and is still for sale actually. I've built myself a Klonpressor (Lovesqueeze into Klone) that's replaced it.
    haha nice :D
    It's been done - some guy on the thread has made clones of it, and is taking orders.

    It's painful to watch - blatant stealing. Which, of course, supports the theory it's just a slightly tweaked clone of something else. Otherwise, surely they'd feel some guilt at cloning?

    Nice work btw @juansolo.
    Yeah I saw that. :)) Called the "bloom" or something like that. It's getting to the point where we need a poe's law for boutique stompboxes (or even just for TGP). I genuinely don't know what's a pisstake or not any more.
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  • Yeah, same...

    Oh well. I'm so glad the visual sound route 66 is literally the overdrive sound in my head. That's thousands of pounds saved right there... :)
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2328
    :))

    I'm pretty happy with a transparent type od (e.g. timmy or bd2 or similar) and a ts- or sd1-type od. Neither costs tons. Admittedly I'm using them more for boosts than for standalone overdrive.
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  • @juansolo wins!
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  • juansolojuansolo Frets: 1773
    I really need to step away from TGP *blushes* 

    I'll be amazed if I don't have another infraction by the morning.

    Can't build anything, it's shitty outside and there's xmas tv on... It could get messy if anyone engages me ;)
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  • Do it. I'll cheerlead.

    In fairness, I'm pretty much where you are - it's just pointless arguing with folks like that, where the goal posts will move to defend them at all times.
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  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2744
    wow - I just scanned that thread and amongst the mentalists trying to support to argue with themselves - they have openly made a clone and started promoting it.   I've got to hand it to them for the sheer audacity and how quickly they've made and started selling them - although that does make it look even more suspiciously a simple circuit.  What an odd place!
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  • juansolojuansolo Frets: 1773
    I'll put money on it being a modded Zen Drive.
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2328
    edited December 2013
    @juansolo wins!
    Yep i saw his post. I was torn between agreeing with it and wanting not to get an infraction. I've never actually got one but I get the feeling i'm skating on thin ice. :))
    In fairness, I'm pretty much where you are - it's just pointless arguing with folks like that, where the goal posts will move to defend them at all times.

    Agreed. That's the most infuriating thing. You can go through the threads and find bits which totally contradict things they say later. And yet they still have the temerity to attempt to claim the moral high ground.

    I mean, I'm not saying I'm perfect or never wrong or anything like that, but holy crap, I don't say one thing one day and then the next day say the opposite and still claim to be in the right, especially when there's documentary evidence proving what I said the previous day. :))
    John_P said:
    wow - I just scanned that thread and amongst the mentalists trying to support to argue with themselves - they have openly made a clone and started promoting it.   I've got to hand it to them for the sheer audacity and how quickly they've made and started selling them - although that does make it look even more suspiciously a simple circuit.  What an odd place!
    Yeah. This one is possibly even crazier than the previous Jan Ray thread. In this one you have people claiming that FSB is evil for trying to reverse-engineer it to let people know what it is... and then the self-same people (I think) later in the thread reverse it themselves (or talk someone into reversing it) so they can sell it on for profit.

    You couldn't make it up.
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  • juansolojuansolo Frets: 1773
    Dave_Mc said:
    @juansolo wins!
    Yep i saw his post. I was torn between agreeing with it and wanting not to get an infraction. I've never actually got one but I get the feeling i'm skating on thin ice. :))
    Bah, I think it takes more effort than you think. I've got two and they haven't banned me yet. Hopefully it won't take much longer. :)
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  • ThePrettyDamnedThePrettyDamned Frets: 7472
    edited December 2013
    Apparently, the clone is 300 dollars. Which is... Super expensive. For a pedal they've admitted isn't original, too. I reckon, based on the clips, it's a tube screamer with mods. I got my route 66 to sound identical. Even cleans up just as badly! Still, no point speculating.

    It's an odd world. You'd think they'd at least charge less - 300 dollars is well into the realms of 'research for a pedal' in my opinion, and they've done none. The valvesporker (wish I had one...) was a tubeacreamer but a) he was totally open about it and b) there is nothing that sounds even remotely like it and c) it was never 220 odd quid, if I remember correctly. I imagine sporky did a fair bit more work than just cloning an already existing pedal...

    Edit: apparently it's a circuit that is simpler with less parts than a tubescreamer. Wtf?! Is it a fet booster or something?! :p
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  • allicioallicio Frets: 221
    You guys are missing the main point!
    Americans arnt the brightest!
    Now where's that hiding behind the couch avatar!
    :))
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