To key change or not to key change....

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rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 1373
Looking at another segue section for the band. Message to you (Rudy) going into Tide is high (Blondie). Working them out last night, message is in C whole Tide is in B. I think I prefer that order and they are both I IV V progressions.

So I am working on putting the whole thing in C. Or do we go up to C# on the change..... (I have v little theory knowledge and it may depend on convenience for the brass section....)

Waddya reckon?
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Comments

  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9794
    IMO going up a semitone gives an "excitement lift", going down one could do the reverse. I think you want to pull the punters up and drag them along with you, so go up one.

    Bb instruments sound a tone lower than the note they think they're playing (why they don't just call it a different note is beyond me ...), and they tend not to like playing in sharp keys. However if you're at concert pitch C, they'll play in D quite happily. If you go to C# (which you can think of it that way if you like), you can also call it Db. It means the brass will have to play in Eb, and I think they will like it :)

    How you achieve the key change: you could do it subtly by various modulations (C->F-.Bb->Eb->Ab->Db) or you could do it abruptly which IMO will have the sudden excitement lift you're looking for.

    HTH :)

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  • Put Tide Is High into the middle of Message To You Rudy. Mash-up-a-gogo

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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited April 2016
    What sort of brass?
    How skilled are the brass players and are they reading the gig (some keys are less desirable- B major has 5 sharps which kinda sucks for reading).

    A semitone lift is a cliche but some people like it.
    Many musicians will sneer- it is a bit of a cheap trick.

    Edit: just read it properly- a semitone drop will feel like energy dissipates, rather than builds.
    I'd probably put them in the same key, to make it easier.
    C is an easy key to read as well.

    Bear in mind what suits the vocalist as well.
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 26743
    edited April 2016
    Definitely don't go down in key, that won't sound good. I'd ask the brass and vocals what they want and play both in that. 

    Not sure if brass have funny instrument-keys like E-flat sax and B-flat clarinet where what they call a C is actually a B-flat or E-flat. IIRC trumpets are usually B-flat, not sure about the others. Either way well worth checking as giving them an easy key is almost always the route to a happy horn section :D
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  • vasselmeyervasselmeyer Frets: 3664
    If you do it in Bb you can get some bagpipes in.
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  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 1373
    As much as bagpipes appeal, not sure we have the skills in the band to pull that one off! ;)

    We have trombone (perfect for the solo in Rudy), sax, and trumpet. All prefer to read though
    :(

    Sounds like we have to stay in same key, or go up. Guess we we can mess about with it and see what works best and suits singers range, and is easy for all. Thanks for the ideas.
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  • Our singer sings the lyrics to tide is high over rudi on the final verse. We don't change from the Rudi chord sequence. I guess were lame and/or lazy. Goes down well though!! 
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  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 1373
    Our singer sings the lyrics to tide is high over rudi on the final verse. We don't change from the Rudi chord sequence. I guess were lame and/or lazy. Goes down well though!! 
    Ah feck- I thought we were doing something new! Ah well, good to know it goes down well though! Thanks ;)
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  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 9654
    Definitely don't modulate downwards, especially not a semi tone, it'll sound like others say, a bit of a reduction of excitement. I guess unless you go back up again afterwards reprising the first song?

    Either stay the same or go up one (semi tone to c# or full tone to D)
    Phil_aka_Pip;1051715" said:

    Bb instruments sound a tone lower than the note they think they're playing (why they don't just call it a different note is beyond me ...),
    It's to do with the notation I think, the range of instruments which transpose fit better onto the five lines of the staff if you transpose them down various intervals without having to have loads of ledger lines above or below the normal staff
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    The Tide is High was the Paragons, fecking Blondie popularising things. :( Rudy goes on too long as it is (it's on our have to play rather than want to play list - although that might suggest perhaps we shouldn't be a 2 Tone covers band after all!) so going into Tide in the same key might be a bit dull. IIRC The Specials do Longshot - Liquidator in C followed by Skinhead Moonstomp in F ie up a fourth (or down a fifth). I'm guessing that's less jarring for the horns as well as it is almost the same set of notes whereas going up a semi tone is easy on guitar but trickier on horns.
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9794
    @colourbox there are various clefs that can be used for that - the alto & tenor clefs for example locating C on the 3rd line, or 4th line respectively. I think it's more to do with the fingering, and the physical fact that the instrument sounds better when bored so that when you finger a C it sounds like a Bb (apparently C clarinets have been tried but people don't like their tone so much).

    The notation is way more flexible than instrument design
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  • HAL9000HAL9000 Frets: 9549
    edited May 2016
    Phil_aka_Pip;1051715" said:

    How you achieve the key change: you could do it subtly by various modulations (C->F-.Bb->Eb->Ab->Db) or you could do it abruptly which IMO will have the sudden excitement lift you're looking for.
    Or, if you want to stick with the original keys of C and B, this might work...

    C | D | E | F#7 | B

    ...this way you have a handful of whole-tone lifts, before the F#7 resolves to the B. I'm not at home at the moment so haven't tested it, but think it should work.




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