Some bands, and why you need a decent sound guy.

koneguitarist

Played a small event today, should have been on at 2:30 till 3pm. Everything falling behind as engineer and I use term lightly was frankly not up to job, add to that band on before us, who were also supposed to 30mins did 50mins, to the point I asked them are you getting off or what,

His reply was " we just do our set mate everyone is late, so you will be! " I told sound engineer to pull the plug on them, but he was afraid of repercussions.

So event finishes at 4pm we go on at 3:35, place  is starting to get really cold and people leaving, so complete waste of fucking time. Had words with engineer as sound was bad, we are probably the easiest band to deal with, as we like low volume and a standard monitor mix of only vocals and acoustic, he was completely overwhelmed and out of his depth. 

Rather than checking out front sound, he was checking levels using headphones, so much so that I put guitar down while band was playing, took him out front and asked is that sound a decent mix? Vocals were louder on stage than out front, acoustic guitar was way too loud and distorting despite using a good quality DI box which we use regularly , and also he could not get a low enough level out of bass amp, using the DI out pre eq on a GK bass amp. Possibly my worst experience with a sound engineer. Talked to him afterwards, and he said he had only really done church band before. 

IvisonGuitars

Sounds like you had a 'mare Taff.

It's these gigs that make you appreciate the good ones.

koneguitarist

It was just one of those gigs, money was crap anyway, but we didn't mind that as it was local and always a couple of thousand people, so we normally get other gigs out of it. 

But if it's good fun with a decent sound guy it works well, wish I had done the PA myself now.

robinbowes

Two separate things going on here:

1. inexperienced sound engineer
2. no stage manager

An experienced engineer would either make sure there was a stage manager or take on the job themselves.

Sounds like the other band(s) were a set of dicks!

R.

ICBM

That "engineer" sounds totally incompetent.

That kind of crap from gig managers/engineers/whatever they call themselves (usually inaccurately whichever one you pick!) is one of the things that eventually put me off bothering with the originals band scene in the end, since it seems to be ridden with them - and bands who think they're god's gift and can do what they like.

The best promoter/gig manager I ever worked with was a rather big guy who had no hesitation in pulling the plug on bands who overran or otherwise dicked about - literally if necessary. Even he got fed up with the sheer hassle of it and packed it in though...

thomasross20

I remember you telling me that before, ICBM. Good on him lol.

koneguitarist

https://www.facebook.com/FlatlandBB/ A vid from near the end of the set, and it was getting very cold indeed!

BahHumbug

I've done done quite a few small local 'events' over the last few years and it just sounds par for the course to me. If it's not poor sound guys, it's organisers who think it takes exactly zero seconds to get one band off stage and the next one on. We still do them cos we likes to play, but you do have to take your most tolerant head out with you and expect to be starting after you were supposed to have finished.

koneguitarist

Oh I am fairly tolerant generally, and understand that sometimes things ain't perfect, but we was halfway through set, before he was getting to grips with sound, and that was after I dragged him away from desk to listen out front!

wayneirie

He's probably hardly getting paid. From that video you posted. There wasn't even a stage. What do you expect? was the sound bad for the other bands? If it was where were your wise words then? Everyone has to start somewhere and people tend to start doing sound for 30 quid for 8 bands a day, He probably was out of his depth. 

 And had probably been thrown in at the deep end. No one proper would touch that gig. Perhaps the better approach would be to share your experience and try and help him out...

koneguitarist

Stage or no stage, sound mix is relatively easy to achieve if you have some kind of experience.

As for telling an engineer how to do someone else's sound? Would you do that? 

As it was it was not very good, but I told him how we wanted it to make it as easy for him as possible. His main problem was lack of experience, but also he got overwhelmed by the job. The other band compounded things by playing too long. 

wayneirie

koneguitarist said:

Stage or no stage, sound mix is relatively easy to achieve if you have some kind of experience.

As for telling an engineer how to do someone else's sound? Would you do that? 

As it was it was not very good, but I told him how we wanted it to make it as easy for him as possible. His main problem was lack of experience, but also he got overwhelmed by the job. The other band compounded things by playing too long. 

Well my point is, that he had none or very little experience. If you can see he's struggling why make it harder on yourself and him. As I said no one with experience would probably be interested in doing it. If the sound was bad for the other bands, Introducing yourself and asking if he was happy with it? would of helped him a little. Perhaps politely suggesting things that could be improved, developing some kind of rapport with him. I was merely suggesting a different approach may of been more beneficial for all parties.

koneguitarist

@wayneirie I understand your point, and if you have read any of my previous points with sound engineers in other posts, I am very much of an opinion that you work with the sound engineer and make it as simple as possible for him.

Now this i did, told him quite pleasantly we are very easy to mix for, we are a very consistent band, we don't give a low level signal, then soon as he has done his mix crank everything on stage etc. All the usual tricks that some bands get up to and blame the engineer for, my biggest point is he decided to try and mix the band from behind his own speakers and occasionally have a listen out front. 

What I should have done with hindsight to make it easier, and probably would have been quicker in long run, would have been to use my own desk and just give him a signal to put through his system.

Don't get me wrong for every bad engineer there are a hundred bad bands as well, so I know it's not all one way, but having done PA in a field with 12 bands in 12 hours, 15 min turn rounds, I know what it's like to e under pressure, but you can reduce pressure by being strict with bands and labelling your desk properly. 

The problem is, if I had really taken the time to do things properly, do a full sound check and set things up just the way I like it, we would not have been able to do show, as it was running so late, it was running so late because, all of above. 

Danny1969

That kind of gig with no FOH position out front is better off mixed from an Ipad. That's what I generally do. Leave the desk under the tent in case it rains and just iPad it out front. 

 I always bang on about why I think it's important for a band to have it's own engineer to mix them and it's gigs like that with inexperienced guys running PA that reinforces that point. Luckily you guys have a consistent style of playing so even though the mix in that Facebook vid isn't great it's not that bad., 

koneguitarist

Did a pa for a band once at Westlands center in Yeovil, where the desk is up in a small room opposite but much higher than the stage.

Every band would have a real bass heavy sound, as the high end speakers were all flown up, last time I did it, I had mixer on stage and just gave a stereo line out to main desk so I could do sound from floor level where audience was. 

The sound engineer at this event when I mentioned digital desks, he said they were the devils work! Enough said really. 

IvisonGuitars

Doesn't sound horrendous @koneguitarist, at least the vocals are prominent, that's 90% of what Joe Public would be interested in. Great groove going on though! Must try and make one of your gigs, try and tie it in with a weekend Dorset way. Have some family down there too.

koneguitarist

@miserneil always welcome mate, let me know if you are coming down, play mainly around 15-20 mile radius of Yeovil.

p90fool

I'm in Cerne Abbas for a week or so from 1st of June, let me know if you're gigging and I might get a chance to come and say hi.

Placidcasual79

I having some difficulties with our 'sound guy'.

Were a 9 piece band - 4 horns, keys, vox, guitar, bass and drums. Were far from pro - but are out 2 or 3 times month. We sound great at club gigs and festivals when were using other PA's and engineers. 

At pub gigs we use our own pa. The singer used to bring his little rig - but used to get ridiculously stressed setting up - and his equipment wasn't really up to scratch. 

We got approached by a friend of a friend who claimed to be a sound engineer and was happy to do our pub gigs for £10. He always turns up and seems to have masses of super expensive looking gear so some problems solved there..,,

Problem is he doesn't have a clue. We are plagued by feedback at the gigs he does (for some reasons in-between songs usually). The girls/horns use those little clip on mics so they can dance about a bit (probably the most appealing aspect of our show) and he seems utterly unable to use them without feedback (keeps ranting on about phantom power?!?!), he doesn't mic the guitar and bass (unless we insist) and doesn't seem to realise he needs to be in front of the band to hear the mix. 

Half the band think stick with him - he is cheap, has excellent gear and the singer is no longer stressed. The other half think sack him, use the money to buy 'a band PA of our own' and get some one other than the singer (me!) to learn how to use it. 

What are your thoughts? How hard can it be to learn how to set up a basic PA and get a reasonable mix (famous last words I am sure)

robinbowes

Placidcasual79 said:

What are your thoughts? How hard can it be to learn how to set up a basic PA and get a reasonable mix (famous last words I am sure)

Doing live sound is *not* easy, esp. if you don't know what you're doing, or have cloth ears, or both.

Find someone else who can do the job, and bin him.

R.

slacker

I've played in church bands a lot and there's three types of sound people 1 competent (rare) 2 barely competent but aware of it and only doing it cos nobody else will (more common) 3 absolutely useless and completely unaware of it.

The sound guy in the original post sounds like a 2. I can work with these people in a situation like this but there's a trick, always goes on early in the running order.

Last multi band thing I did was for free, out of town and I brought family and friends. The stage manager wanted us to go on an hour early. My rent a fans were not there so I politely declined. So pissed up band went on went over time, and my set got cut by 10 mins as the headliner had another gig.

In hindsight I wouldn't have bothered taking anyone, taken the earlier slot and just played to the locals.