Depped again last night

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koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
Played with a good band last night, got call on Thursday and a full setlist same night.
Majority of songs was a typical SOCA set with All right now, sex on fire, born to be wild etc, but some choice numbers that I have never played before like Human, Use Somebody, and Purple rain. 
But biggest issue I had was volume, so many bands still play incredibly loud on stage and I have to wonder with all the stage stuff you can use nowadays, like IEM small valve amps, attenuators and so on, Why! 
Guitarist had a Marshall 100w with 4x12, bassist had some Valkenflyer or something bass cabs which sounded great, and Drum kit although quite loud and punchy was Mic'd up with seven mics! 
This was a small WMC in Weymouth, FairPlay it sounded good and everyone was happy, but after years of reducing stage volume and size of kit I use, I struggled with volume, my Excelsior was completely lost on stage, so needed monitors for my guitar sound. 
What's your thoughts on high volume on stage. 
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Comments

  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2744
    Sounds like some of the bands I dep with and if it's a new band then I'll take a fender twin just to be sure have volume and it's often cranked higher than I'm comfortable  with.     Hope you still enjoyed the gig.
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  • RocknRollDaveRocknRollDave Frets: 6435
    In 2016, there is no need for any band to be any loud enough on stage that it becomes uncomfortable.

    I use in-ears and they are a godsend, not just for me but for anyone sharing a stage with me - The drummer, for example, only has to have what HE needs in the monitor, he doesn't have to compete with my monitor blaring away with my guitar-and-my-vocals mix.

    In our previous line-up, the acoustic guitar was often louder in the wedge than it was FOH. How could that possibly be necessary?! It made mixing the FOH sound tricky as there was so much spillage from the wedge.

    I totally get the whole 'feel it as well as hear it' thing bands have , where they want that trouser-flapping movement of air behind them, but....I want to be able to hear in 20 years' time.

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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    I am in total admiration of anyone who can turn up and just play with a band. Amazing.
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  • thomasross20thomasross20 Frets: 4423
    Yeah admiration for sure!

    Our band are too loud... Our drummer is loud so our volume has to go up. Bassist keeps saying I'm the loud one but last gig was told bass is too loud and guitar too low, which is what I always thought. Especially at practice where it's like a wall of bass is drowning everything out.
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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 2439
    I did a dep gig last night as well. All party stuff with a massive dollop of cheese. On the odd number they rock it up a bit. It was very loud. They loved it. Much more dynamic than they usually are. 

    My take on this is yes, PA/ monitors etc are so good and powerful nowadays you don't need loud stage volume. However, doesn't everything sound better louder? I find if it's really loud (not uncomfortably so) the extra dynamics you have access to make it a much better vibe. If you're constantly full on it won't work but if there is light and shade, the quite bits don't get swamped by the crowd and the loud bits are really punchy. For me if it's too quiet and polite I can't get into it. If I'm not into it I can't expect the crowd to be either. 

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 2439
    Obviously all that is just an excuse for me to turn up my amps! ;-)

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    I prefer to be mic'd up and tilt my amp back so it's pointing to my ears, unless there's guitar in the monitors (which often isn't the case).  That way I can keep the volume down and still hear myself.

    The problems start when the backline isn't mic'd up and I have to rely on my amp only. Then I have my amp speaker at about waist height, pointing directly out (i.e. not tilted) and I play to the level of the drums. Sometimes, depending on the drummer, it can get pretty loud.

    There's a balance to be struck and sometimes it's not easy to get right. I agree with @rossyamaha that if it's too quiet and polite I can't get into it and the crowd probably won't get into it either.

    It's not a competition.
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
    I agree people don't have to play really quiet, as with acoustic drums, there is always an element of volume, and I also hate trying to get a drummer to hold back as he wont play as well.
    I did enjoy the gig as band was good, just the sheer volume for me is too much nowadays. 
    I played back in the 70's with Marshall Stacks etc, I was using combos mainly 50w valve combos throughout 80's and 90's, but with the advent of DI boxes, good monitoring and PA's being so much better, the volume seems more about ego than musicianship. 
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    I have my amp on the floor and I always use iems . Some of the guys I play with are very loud so I try to protect myself. I have ambient mics built into my personality iem monitor amp so even if I'm dep'ing for an old skool band with no available aux sends for me and very little mic'ed up I can just use the ambient mics to hear everything but at a much lower level.

    There's been many a time I've taken my ears out after the last number then got an encore and been amazed at the sheer volume with no ears in ... Really eye opening
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    I've experimented in bands with stage volume and without exception when it was absolutely cranked on stage it felt more exciting and like the band was really on it, but when it came to listening back to a recording the band always sounds less in time and generally worse.
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  • mudslide73mudslide73 Frets: 3049
    ▲ Bang on there, totally.
    "A city star won’t shine too far"


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  • MikeDearingMikeDearing Frets: 32
    I'm of an age hahaha where I get quite upset if everyone is so loud I can still hear the songs on Thursday.. My rejoinder is usually "I'm not going deaf of a £100 fee or whatever" also I reckon if it is really loud then you drive the punters away..
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  • richardhomerrichardhomer Frets: 24793
    edited May 2016
    I used to dep in a band where the leader believed a lack of rehearsal was a positive.

    Much of the set was easy enough to follow - but the odd Steely Dan song he'd throw in was entirely beyond anyone's busking ability.

    There are occasions where you really do need to learn the material...
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
    edited May 2016
    @richarhomer I agree, only song that really caught me out was The boys are back in town, even put up a little chord cheat beside me so I could follow it, fine until we come to do song in G yet it's on their set list in A! Try and transpose on the fly after someone goes ok 2-3-4 !!! That got a sweat on.
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
    Some footage from the dep gig. Asked me to start You never can tell, as I do it in my band, but drummer does it differently! But it was nice to hear the strat, could hardly hear it on night.
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  • mike257mike257 Frets: 374
    Yeah, blazing stage volume is for suckers. Just not needed. I prefer keeping it to a minimum and letting the PA do the hard work. I think my 30w 2x12 is overkill most of the time and am seriously considering using my little Champ 25 next time I'm out on a guitar gig. My bass rig is a 2x10 now, the only time my big Ampeg 610 has moved out of the garage in the last few years is for a couple of video shoots!
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  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 1374
    So genuine question here. I gig in a band where we generally use a vocal only pa perhaps with a touch of pa on the brass section.

    To go IEM etc by my reckoning we would need a new desk (min 12, maybe 16 inputs), 7 IEM kits, a set of drum mics, passive subs, a cross over and some sort of power amp for the sub. And some cleaver bugger to work it all

    Assuming that shopping list is remotely correct, so we could all turn down, what would that run to?
    An official Foo liked guitarist since 2024
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
    Don't need to use in ear, I don't it's not for everyone.
    Point of turning down on stage is you actually seem to play better, get less fatigued, more consistent tones, and band seems to generally gel better as you can all hear each other. Also your out front sound is controlled easier as there is less coming off the stage. 
    However if you have a rediculously loud drummer, it ain't ever gonna be that quiet.
    To me all bands need to start reducing volume (where possible) with drummer, easy to go louder that's what PA's are for but a drummer generally has a level of power that he feels comfortable at, getting a drummer to hold back doesn't always work, no better than the whole band playing too loud and drummer is having to belt 10 bells of shot out of his kit as he can't hear himself. 

    Yes a wall of Marshall stacks look great, but I am not sure anyone actually uses them all even at festivals nowadays. Bigger the gig bigger the PA smaller the amp you need. 
    We are not a loud band onstage, yet can still belt it out on certain tracks as Drummer will often switch between hot rods and regular sticks giving him the lift he needs for odd songs hear and there. 
    Since the band has started playing quieter(back in late 90's in country clubs) the bonus has been audiences sit or stand closer to band and we seem to get asked back a lot more. 
    We use a small vocal PA with 3 small active monitors, one for drummer and one either side of lead singer. So it covers frontline of band. Again because we don't have such high stage volume we don't need much monitor volume. 
    I cannot think of any benefits of playing too loud apart from excitement, which is often offset by tinnutus. 
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    rsvmark said:
    So genuine question here. I gig in a band where we generally use a vocal only pa perhaps with a touch of pa on the brass section.

    To go IEM etc by my reckoning we would need a new desk (min 12, maybe 16 inputs), 7 IEM kits, a set of drum mics, passive subs, a cross over and some sort of power amp for the sub. And some cleaver bugger to work it all

    Assuming that shopping list is remotely correct, so we could all turn down, what would that run to?
    The five bands I play in basically use a digital desk at around £800 to £1200 ish and active bins and tops which can cost anywhere from £1200 to £4K, used obviously is cheaper. But the PA isn't really relevant to IEM's .... the fact you might need to mic up the drums to get a nice IEM drum mix doesn't mean you need the drums blasting out the PA. The digital desk bit here is important though as you need an lot of aux sends to run IEM's in stereo and analog desks won't have enough. Also with a digital desk you can control your IEM mix from your phone which obviously you can't do with an analog desk. 

    There's actually no need to use any kind of radio transmitters and receivers for IEM's unless you want to run around and jump on tables. Drummers, keyboard players etc can use a simple hardwired IEM amp at around £50 and guitarist can use an IEM combiner which is something I invented and it combines your IEM stereo signal, 2 stereo ambient mics and your guitar signal into one cable. These units cost £89 and will sonically outperform a radio IEM system and obviously  don't need batteries. 

    As Koneguitarist rightly says IEM's aren't for everyone. They take a lot of getting used too and can seem a big hassle at first. But the upside is you hear everything in microscopic detail, Kone mentions  you can all hear each other at lowish stage volume, IEM's mean you can hear detail that wouldn't be possible under any other environment ..... not a good thing sometimes when you play a bum note and know EVERYONE in the band heard it but in general it makes you play better and helps your vocal tuning enoumously 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
    @Danny1969 I agree, it doesn't have to cost the earth, but what price do you put on your hearing?
    I personally prefer the idea of low volume on stage to in ear monitor system, but that's me being an old fart and unlikely to change now. 
    Also one of the best things for me regarding stripping PA back and reducing volume, set up and strip down takes less time, and also YOU control your sound as musicians and it does improve you. 
    Maybe I will try IEM one day, we don't need many mixes as a 5pc
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