Ruddy 'Modes'!

richardhomer

Modes confuse the bejesus out of me. I tend to see things like the raised 6th in the Dorian mode as just a variation of the minor scale - rather than something separate. This thread is making me feel very musically inept....

viz

But you're spot on - that's EXACTLY what Dorian is. The fact that it's a mode of Ionian can be thought of as entirely incidental.

richardhomer

viz;1080196" said:

But you're spot on - that's EXACTLY what Dorian is. The fact that it's a mode of Ionian can be thought of as entirely incidental.

So those fancy sounding passing notes are okay then?

I'm pretty good on chord theory - which I find quite straight forward - but struggle to 'intellectualise' soloing.

I remember discovering Bb worked well against the V chord when playing a blues in A. I thought I may have discovered some clever mode - then figured out that it was the flattened 5th of the chord I was playing it over - in other words, it was just a 'blue note'.

I was quite disappointed....

viz

Why not indeed, if you're soloing, anything will sound musical if you weave it nicely into a tune, so yep why not. Try playing these notes over the V chord (E): E F G Ab Bb (B) C D E.

richardhomer

viz;1080227" said:

Why not indeed, if you're soloing, anything will sound musical if you weave it nicely into a tune, so yep why not. Try playing these notes over the V chord (E): E F G Ab Bb (B) C D E.

Thanks - I'll mess around with them.

Hopefully you'll break me out out my pentatonic malaise!

Much appreciated.

viz

Cool. Think of that example above as playing F dorian but with a raised 7th as well as 6th, over the E V-chord. Odd that it should work but it does!

GuyBoden

viz said:

Re modes vs modal, please could you elaborate, Mr Boden?

Modes are generally taught in traditional music theory as being derived from a parent scale, examples: "The modes of the Major scale", "The modes of the Harmonic minor scale", "The modes of the Melodic minor scale". This relates modes to the most commonly taught music theory, Major-minor scales (used since around 1650).

Modern Modal music theory sees each scale as independent and distinct. Each scale having a character note(s), which can be used to create harmonic instability or omitted to create harmonic stability. Other types of Modal music includes: Plateau Modal, Vertical Modal, Linear Modal, non-diatonically related Modal and others.  The commonality in complex Modern Modal music is that it avoids using traditional Major-minor music theory.

viz

Nice one, cheers.

seany65

Thanks for your extensive help Viz.

when I saw your first reply to my second post, I thought "Oh poo! This is going to take yonks to read and understand" and I thought of quoting this from ny first post:

"Help in words of more than one syllable may not be understood."

(This next bit may read like an insult, it's not meant to be, although I can't think of any other way of saying this that may seem less like and insult so please bear with me.)

But having looked at it, as far as I can tell, much of the first part is irrelavent to my way of understanding my problems with modes. However, the "tstttst" bit does help. I have noticed that two of that list don't have 3  t's. Is this a typo?

As a simple explanation of what I now I understand modes and scales at the minute would be:

Of the C1 (Ionian Mode/Major Scale),

C2 is D Dorian Mode,

C3 is E Phrygian Mode,

C4 is F Lydian Mode,

C5 is G Myxolydian Mode,

C6 is  A Aeolian Mode/relative natural  minor scale,

C7 is the B Locrian Mode.

I think of the D1 Ionian Mode/Major Scale,

D2 is E Dorian Mode.

D3 is F Phrygian Mode.

D4 is G Lydian Mode.

D5 is A Myxolydian Mode.

D6 is B Aeolian Mode/relative natural minor scale.

D7 is C Locrian Mode.

And so on. Each Mode being useable as a scale in itself.

I also get what you say about how we can make up scales of our own using different TSST combinations from what the 'usual' scales have.

From what I think I understand of your explanation of why Modes can have raised notes or lowered notes without those notes actually being sharpened or flattened, is that, in your example the G myxolydian Mode would be taken from the C Ionian Mode/Major scale, NOT the G Ionian Mode/Major scale, and as the C Ionian/Major Scale does not have sharps or flats in it, then the G Myxolydian Mode can't have sharps or flats in it either. Consequently, the G Myxolydian Mode does not have the F# that the G Ionian Mode/Major Scale has and so can be said to have a 'lowered' F note, without that note actually being Fb (or E) as it would be if we started off with a C Ionian but then decided to 'lower'/flatten the F to Fb.


Again, no insult intended, but all that bit about frequencies didn't help me either, just made things a bit more technical.

Thanks again for your help.

Brad

@seany65

To answer your initial question, both ways are right! 

There are 7 notes in the Major scale and 7 different modes that are a sound in their own right.

There are two different ways of viewing modes for learning purposes - parallel and derivative.

Parallel is to get the modes from the one root note, as an alteration of the Major Scale. So C Dorian or C Phrygian are viewed as an alterations of C Major (Ionian), as you have to change certain notes to get these modes...

C Ionain - C D E F G A B

C Dorian - C D Eb F G A Bb

C Phrygian - C Db Eb F G Ab Bb

So C Dorian is a C Major scale with a b3 and b7. To get C Phrygian you need to flatten the 2nd, 3rd 6th and 7th of the C major scale, raise the 4th for C Lydian, flatten the 7th for C Mixolydian etc...

Derivative is to get the modes from each note of a 'parent scale'. So D Dorian is derived from the C Major Scale.

C Ionian - C D E F G A B

D Dorian - D E F G A B C

E Phrygian - E F G A B C D

Notice how these are all the same notes just starting at different places, yet in the parallel approach the notes actually change?

However, D Dorian can be still viewed as an alteration of the D Major scale...

D Ionian - D E F# G A B C#

D Dorian - D E F G A B C

D Phrygian - D Eb F G A Bb C

Notice how the 3rd and 7th have been flattened for Dorian and the 2nd 3rd 6th and 7th for Phrygian?

These are just two ways of learning the same material, find and use what works for you. For me, initially it was derivative but these days it's mostly parallel.

I think it's really important that you know your key signatures and diatonic harmony like the back of your hand, away from the guitar for this to really begin to sink in. Learn the formulas for each mode and what chords work with each mode, context is king.

Take it steady, it's a tough road but worth it.

Good luck.

    

    

viz

seany65 said:

(This next bit may read like an insult, it's not meant to be, although I can't think of any other way of saying this that may seem less like and insult so please bear with me.)

But having looked at it, as far as I can tell, much of the first part is irrelavent to my way of understanding my problems with modes. However, the "tstttst" bit does help.

Again, no insult intended, but all that bit about frequencies didn't help me either, just made things a bit more technical.

Thanks again for your help.

No worries, fundamental maths floats some peoples' boats; pragmatic examples float others'. And I'm always guilty of over-theorising, just ignore the stuff that doesn't work for you. Glad some of it is helping.

seany65 said:

 I have noticed that two of that list don't have 3  t's. Is this a typo?

No. They do, it's just that they're at the start or end. So, the mixolydian scale, ttsttst, has 3 tones in a row; two at the bottom of the scale and one at the top. When you play two or more octaves of this scale, they link up to make 3 tones in a row.

seany65 said:

I think of the D1 Ionian Mode/Major Scale,

D2 is E Dorian Mode.

D3 is F Phrygian Mode.

D4 is G Lydian Mode.

D5 is A Myxolydian Mode.

D6 is B Aeolian Mode/relative natural minor scale.

D7 is C Locrian Mode.

Not quite right, because D Ionian (or D major) has 2 sharps in it; The F and the C actually need to be F# and C#. Look at that piano. You can see that you need to have an F# to get the major 3rd. In the case of C major you don't need, it because C-E is already a major 3rd, but because of the arrangement of black keys, and the fact there isn't one between E and F, you need an F# to make D - F# a major 3rd.

So you should have said:

I think of the D1 Ionian Mode/Major Scale,

D2 is E Dorian Mode.

D3 is F# Phrygian Mode.

D4 is G Lydian Mode.

D5 is A Myxolydian Mode.

D6 is B Aeolian Mode/relative natural minor scale.

D7 is C# Locrian Mode.

seany65 said:

From what I think I understand of your explanation of why Modes can have raised notes or lowered notes without those notes actually being sharpened or flattened, is that, in your example the G myxolydian Mode would be taken from the C Ionian Mode/Major scale, NOT the G Ionian Mode/Major scale, and as the C Ionian/Major Scale does not have sharps or flats in it, then the G Myxolydian Mode can't have sharps or flats in it either. Consequently, the G Myxolydian Mode does not have the F# that the G Ionian Mode/Major Scale has and so can be said to have a 'lowered' F note, without that note actually being Fb (or E) as it would be if we started off with a C Ionian but then decided to 'lower'/flatten the F to Fb.

Exactly.

Good stuff too Brad. Yes, this theory stuff is imo well worth it, and can even be fun, but you need to tackle it step by step Sean. Circle of Fifths is a great and fundamental place to start. so is studying the piano's layout. Good luck

UnclePsychosis

seany65 said:

From what I think I understand of your explanation of why Modes can have raised notes or lowered notes without those notes actually being sharpened or flattened, is that, in your example the G myxolydian Mode would be taken from the C Ionian Mode/Major scale, NOT the G Ionian Mode/Major scale, and as the C Ionian/Major Scale does not have sharps or flats in it, then the G Myxolydian Mode can't have sharps or flats in it either. Consequently, the G Myxolydian Mode does not have the F# that the G Ionian Mode/Major Scale has and so can be said to have a 'lowered' F note, without that note actually being Fb (or E) as it would be if we started off with a C Ionian but then decided to 'lower'/flatten the F to Fb.

This is right.

There are basically two ways of thinking about constructing modes: either thinking of them as modified major scales OR thinking of them as major scales starting on different notes. They give you the same results but to me it is better not to mix the two up. 

Firstly, remember scales are always named for the note they begin with. This is important when talking about modes. 

Take G mixolydian as an example: I think of this in two different ways. 

The first is as a "modified major scale" in which case I know that the recipe to construct a mixolydian scale is to start from G major (G A B C D E F# G) and flatten the seventh to get to G mixolydian (G A B C D E F G). 

The second is as a "major scale starting on a different note". In this case, I know I want G mixolydian, and I also know that G mixolydian is the same as a major scale, but starting on the fifth degree of that scale. Since I know my intervals I know G is a fifth above C, I know that G mixolydian is therefore the same notes as C major but starting on a G which gives (G A B C D E F G). 

Similarly, for D dorian. The recipe method tells you to start with D major (D E F# G A B C# D) and flatten the third and seventh to get D Dorian (D E F G A B C D). The "major scale in a different place" method tells you that Dorian scales are a major scale but starting on the second degree of the scale, so since D is the second note of C major we again go back to the notes of C major but play them starting on D to give (D E F G A B C D). 

Beginning to make sense? 

Personally I prefer the "major starting in a different place" because in my head its more obvious how the different modes are linked together. For instance, its immediately obvious to me that D dorian and G mixolydian are linked harmonically because they're both C major starting on a different note. I also, personally, find it much, much easier to remember which mode is which this way round! 

viz

Nice. The other easy way of remembering what the different scales sound like (for Uncle Physcosis's first example) is just to have a tune for each. Eg Ionian: Doe a Deer. Dorian: Greensleeves. Phrygian: White Rabbit. Lydian: Flying in a Blue Dream. Etc.

seany65

Thanks again viz.

I got the D3 and D7 starting notes wrong, 'cos I'm concentrating on on the C Major scale and the relative A minor scales for now, so I didn't think about actual #'s or b's.

Thanks for the suggestions UnclePsychosis, but I daren't think of the non-Ionian Modes as 'major scales starting in different places', 'cos I'll get 'em mixed up with the  Ionian Mode/Major Scales we already have. As things stand 'D Dorian' would not make me think of the D Major scale and so it wouldn't occur to me to flatten any notes.

On the other hand, I keep thinking that Modes should have the root note of the Ionian Mode/Scale as part of their name, so for example, that all Scales taken from C Ionian Mode /Scale would start with C followed by the name of the Mode, so that they would be C Dorian, C Lydian etc. This would stop me mixing up D Ionian/Major Scale with D Dorian Mode etc.

Don't worry, I'll try and remember the official/correct way of naming modes.

UnclePsychosis

seany65 said:

On the other hand, I keep thinking that Modes should have the root note of the Ionian Mode/Scale as part of their name, so for example, that all Scales taken from C Ionian Mode /Scale would start with C followed by the name of the Mode, so that they would be C Dorian, C Lydian etc. This would stop me mixing up D Ionian/Major Scale with D Dorian Mode etc..

That would be hideously confusing in a wider context. All scale names follow a convention: the name of the note they start on followed by the type of scale. "C dorian" actually starting on a D would be really strange. For example, all of the relative minor keys have the same notes as their relative majors (C major and A minor have the same key) but under your scheme what you would be calling "C Aeolian" would be referred to by the rest of the western musical world as A minor.

If it helps, don't think of the modes as being "derived" from major scales. They're scales in their own right: the fact you can use major scales to construct them is a bonus, nothing more (for now, anyway).

seany65

Yes, I've been thinking about that. I've decided to use the name formula of "Root note of Ionian-name of Mode".

This gives, for example, "C-D Dorian" for D Dorian. This reminds me I'm working from the C Ionian/Major Scale, but also uses the correct name for the Mode.

Unfortunately, this particular name makes me think 'Seedy Dorian, from Birds of a feather", 'cos she is a bit like that.
)

GuyBoden

UnclePsychosis said:

If it helps, don't think of the modes as being "derived" from major scales. They're scales in their own right: the fact you can use major scales to construct them is a bonus, nothing more (for now, anyway).

Exactly......................

The emphasis of teaching major and minor music theory, means that some musicians can only think in these terms.

seany65

I still prefer to think of Modes as derived Major or minor Scales, but I do get that they are Scales in their own right.

How does a Mode sound different to the Major/minor Scale it's derived from? I mean, when listening, how can we tell what Mode is being used?

Seeing as how the Aeolian Mode/natural minor Scale gives two further 'versions', in the Harmonic and melodic minor Scales, just by messing with a couple of notes, can this be done with the other Modes? 

viz

Just concentrating on the diatonic family first:

You know the pentatonic scales? There's one for major and one for minor. A-minor penta is A C D E G. It's the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th notes of the natural minor scale. It's missing the 2nd and 6th notes.

For those 2nd and 6th notes, if you were to include them, there would be 2 choices for each, so you can construct 4 minor heptatonic scales from them:

a B c d e F g
a B c d e F# g
a Bb c d e F g
a Bb c d e F# g

The first one is called the natural minor scale or Aeolian. It has a major 2nd interval (because the interval between A and B is a tone, which is called a major 2nd when that tone lies between the 1st and 2nd note of the scale); and it has a minor 6th, rather than a major 6th. You need to listen to that scale to get the hang of how it sounds. It's called the natural minor because of that major 2nd and minor 6th (and minor 7th by the way).

The next one has a major 6th - that's the difference between it and the Aeolian scale. It's Dorian. Once you get used to it you can hear it a mile off. Like A Aeolian it has the five pentatonic notes, so if you're noodlin' in pentatonic only, you can't tell if it's Aeolian or dorian, but as soon as you play a 6th, you immediately know it's one or the other.

Though that's not quite true because look at the 3rd scale. That has a minor 2nd (and a minor 6 like Aeolian). It's Phrygian. So while you're noodlin' in pentatonic, you also don't know if it's phyrgian or Aeolian, until you play your chosen 2nd note.

So I think of Aeolian as being the default; Dorian has a sharpened, or 'Major' 6th as compared to Aeolian, and Phrygian has a flattened, or 'Minor' 2nd as compared to Aeolian. Dorian sounds sweeter than Aeolian; phrygian sounds more, I don't know, spicy.

Playing with the 2nds and 6ths of the minor scale, you could also have a minor 2nd and a major 6th; that's not in the diatonic family - it's the old "phrygian dorian" scale, part of the melodic minor family of scales. It's the 2nd mode of melodic minor. It's a lovely scale and to me it sounds sweet and spicy at the same time.

You can do the same with major pentatonic, which uses the 1st, 2nd 3rd, 5th, 6th. It misses 4th and 7th. In A, that would be: A B C# E F#. Or to make it easier, in C it would be: C D E G A. To know whether you are playing ionian, lydian or mixolydian, you have to choose your 4ths and 7ths. A perfect 4th and a major 7th means Ionian. That would be an F and a B in the C scale above. If you augment the 4th (ie play an F#), that's Lydian. It sounds sweeter than Ionian. If you play a perfect 4th but depress the 7th (ie play a Bb), that's mixolydian. It sounds flatter than Ionian, less major. If you simultaneously augment the 4th and depress the 7th, again that's not a diatonic scale - you get the 4th mode of the melodic minor scale (it's the Simpsons tune).

viz

The other two minor scales you mentioned, melodic minor and harmonic minor; you're absolutely right, they are also minor deviations from Aeolian; the beautiful thing about melodic and harmonic minors is what they're actually FOR, and why and how they achieve it, for which I recall our good discussions here:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/690454/#Comment_690454