Which is right, D# or Eb?

Rocker

I can never remember which is which. This extends to all the other 'in between' notes too. All help appreciated, thanks.

Brad

Depends on the context really, what key you're playing in etc.

For example, in E major (E F# G# A B C# D#) it will be named D# not Eb because the name 'E' is already being used, whilst in Ab major (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G) it will be called Eb and not D#, because a type of 'D' has already been used before you get to that enharmonic equivalent. It's to make sure you only use each note name once.

Check the circle of 5th/4ths.

However if you're not that pedantic, either is fine :-)

EricTheWeary

There are two music teachers in my band, they are constantly correcting me on this, drives me barmy and I still can't work it out on the fly. :x

DesVegas

It depends if you are ascending to the note or descending to it, if the note before is higher it is a b, if the note before is lower it is a #

BintyTwanger77

Both are correct descriptions of the same note. However, in terms of which term to use & when, it depends what key you are in.

When writing out major or minor scales, their shouldn't be alterations of the same stated note in the same scale, so you wouldn't use C and C# in the same scale. For example, in E major, there is already an E natural, so therefore you would use D#, not Eb, or if you are playing in Bb major, there is already a D natural in the scale, so you would use Eb not D#. 

Phil_aka_Pip

DesVegas said:

It depends if you are ascending to the note or descending to it, if the note before is higher it is a b, if the note before is lower it is a #

I'm sure that's right for accidentals, but in a diatonic key you have precisely one of each note name present in its scale. In the key of F#, the leading note is not F (because you already have an F#) so you have to call it E#. You must also call it E# because if you called it something else you would be missing an E.

In the OP, D# is right in keys of E, B, F#, C#. Eb is right in keys of Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb

stickyfiddle

BintyTwanger77 said:

Both are correct descriptions of the same note. However, in terms of which term to use & when, it depends what key you are in.

When writing out major or minor scales, their shouldn't be alterations of the same stated note in the same scale, so you wouldn't use C and C# in the same scale. For example, in E major, there is already an E natural, so therefore you would use D#, not Eb, or if you are playing in Bb major, there is already a D natural in the scale, so you would use Eb not D#. 

Pretty much this.

Each key has a defined set of sharps or flats, and it's those you should refer to. If you're in a key with flats, you talked about flats (ie F, Bb, Eb, Ab majors etc); if you're in a "sharps key" (G, D, A, E, B, etc) then you'd refer to them as sharps. 

E.g. E major consists of E, F♯, G♯, A, B, C♯, and D♯, not Gb, Ab, Db or Eb.  

Sporky

Phil_aka_Pip said:

in a diatonic key you have precisely one of each note name present in its scale. In the key of F#, the leading note is not F (because you already have an F#) so you have to call it E#. You must also call it E# because if you called it something else you would be missing an E.

And having one of each letter makes it much easier to follow dots & squiggles music, because each line (or space) is a letter.

ArchtopDave

The other aspect to consider is the chordal relationship. For instance for F7, the 7th is an E flat, as E is the 7th note in the scale, and not D sharp, which would be thought of as a sharp 6th or sharp 13th.

menamestom

EricTheWeary said:

There are two music teachers in my band, they are constantly correcting me on this, drives me barmy and I still can't work it out on the fly. :x

I'm aware I probably get the enharmonic name wrong most of the time, I occationally see the more classically trained muso's I play with roll their eyes, but the karma is restored when I tell them they need to improvise a section

octatonic

Both are valid as notes but you have to consider context.
You'd never use D# in the key of Bb, for example.
As a general rule if you are in a key using flats then use flats, if you are in a key using sharps then use sharps and you won't get into too much trouble if playing western music.

As keys, Eb is much easier than D#.
Eb has 3 flats.

D# has 5 sharps and 2 double sharps.
If someone gave me a piece of music in D# I'd make a brave attempt to play the music, fail and then punch the composer.

paul_c2

octatonic said:

Both are valid as notes but you have to consider context.
You'd never use D# in the key of Bb, for example.
As a general rule if you are in a key using flats then use flats, if you are in a key using sharps then use sharps and you won't get into too much trouble if playing western music.

As keys, Eb is much easier than D#.
Eb has 3 flats.

D# has 5 sharps and 2 double sharps.
If someone gave me a piece of music in D# I'd make a brave attempt to play the music, fail and then punch the composer.

Not necessarily, but it gets complicated. If we are considering cases where the D# or Eb is a member of the scale because it fits the key signature being used, or is a member of the temporary scale/chord then it should follow the convention of the particular scale or key signature, in that you would keep the scale as being described as a continuous sequence of letters.

For example if you were in the key of C major but for some reason temporarily used C minor in a transition, you'd describe a chord or notes used in a melody, according to the scale:

C D Eb F G A Bb C

because within that scale, D is the 2nd and Eb is the minor 3rd.

HOWEVER

if that transition didn't fit the natural scale AND included a diminised 5th, it could be more appropriate to describe it as such, rather than an aug 4th. For example in the key of E major (4 sharps), one might use Bb and not A#. So, it depends on the context of that note within the (possibly temporary) scale or nature of the passing note(s) at the time. It might be used in a chromatic run, where one is no longer fitting in with any "7 note scale" so the convention of keeping the scale to a sequence of letters is out the window! There are no strict rules on which notes must be "raised one semitone", ie sharpened either with the sharp accidental, natural accidental (on a flat note within the key signature) or even double sharps; and which must be lowered one semitone. One might try to 1) write the accidentals to correspond with the temporarily different key signature, 2) write the accidentals to minimise the number of them, 3) write them to offer most clarity to the performer (ie on a downward run, flatten things, on an upward run, sharpen things).

Probably best explained/demonstrated with an example!

paul_c2

"What you're doing" by Rush. Note that its written in E major (4 sharps), but the run includes Bb.

paul_c2

And of course everyone is assuming we're conventionally Spanish tuned in an equal temprement tuning (which is defined by the fret positions being logarithmically related), which means that D# by definition always sounds the same frequency as Eb. Which is fair enough, because a guitar or piano is difficult/impossible to play in just tuning. A trombone player, or a celloist, for example, don't have this restriction and could play in any key they choose to, and make all the intervals sound as clean as possible without any compromises in fitting to a "generic" equal temprement scale. A guitar can do this too, but would require a different tuning than Spanish, and would need a retune to change between certain key signatures. A piano simply can't do it and must have a compromise tuning put on it. Most other instruments, for experienced players, so have a facility to slightly alter the pitch of a note, eg a clarinet or saxophone player can use alternate fingerings or pitch bend with their mouth; a horn player can use their hand in the bell of the horn to alter its pitch a bit, etc.

octatonic

I'm giving less experienced folks a general approach for dealing with keys, sharps and flats.
There are exceptions, which is why I couched my suggestion with 'as a general rule'.
I don't really need a lesson in harmony when I've been teaching music for, what, over 20 years now.

paul_c2

octatonic said:

I'm giving less experienced folks a general approach for dealing with keys, sharps and flats.
There are exceptions, which is why I couched my suggestion with 'as a general rule'.
I don't really need a lesson in harmony when I've been teaching music for, what, over 20 years now.

Apologies for disrupting your harmony!

carlos

octatonic said:

D# has 5 sharps and 2 double sharps.
If someone gave me a piece of music in D# I'd make a brave attempt to play the music, fail and then punch the composer.

Or capo on the 3rd fret? One of the benefits of the guitar is how easy it is to transpose.

stickyfiddle

carlos said:

octatonic said:

D# has 5 sharps and 2 double sharps.
If someone gave me a piece of music in D# I'd make a brave attempt to play the music, fail and then punch the composer.

Or capo on the 3rd fret? One of the benefits of the guitar is how easy it is to transpose.

Yes, but that capo wouldn't work so well if you were playing a flute..!

viz

No; you have to do this: