Do all acoustics action creep up over time?

RandallFlagg

6 month old Martin D28 and action is starting to creep up, it came with the factory 7/64 - 5/64ths and is now, 6 months old and Is now at 8.64ths to 5 and a half 64ths. It doesn't sound a lot but feels noticable under the fingers. All 3 acoustics I have had have the action creep up but after the initial change they seem to settle down after that. This is normal isn't it? or is anyone lucky enough to have an acoustic that kept it's action stable from new. Time to have the bridge saddle shaved

TTony

Is that a truss-rod tweak situation?

Surely the only thing that can cause the action to rise is if the neck has moved a fraction.  Unless the string tension is causing the top of the guitar to lift?

RandallFlagg

Truss rod is fine, relief is .010. No the neck hasn't moved either. It's the top bellying slightly under string tension plus it's summer so is a little more humid causing the wood to swell a little more than normal. It may or may not settle back in winter, previous acoustics haven't

ICBM

Yes, most acoustics do eventually creep up over time. The top will move, it's quite normal with humidity changes and as the wood settles down after the guitar is made.

In the very long term the angle of the neck block can change slightly too, although that will take years on a good-quality guitar - but a very small change makes a noticeable difference, and eventually the neck may need re-setting.

Bear in mind the total string tension is usually around 150lb on an acoustic with 12-gauge strings. That's an enormous amount of force for such a thin wooden shell to handle.

earwighoney

RandallFlagg said:

6 month old Martin D28 and action is starting to creep up, it came with the factory 7/64 - 5/64ths and is now, 6 months old and Is now at 8.64ths to 5 and a half 64ths. It doesn't sound a lot but feels noticable under the fingers. All 3 acoustics I have had have the action creep up but after the initial change they seem to settle down after that. This is normal isn't it? or is anyone lucky enough to have an acoustic that kept it's action stable from new. Time to have the bridge saddle shaved, can anyone recommend a competent acoustic technicican/repairer anywhere near King's Lynn, Norfolk?

It could also be that the soundboard of your guitar has swollen slightly due to the conditions right now which are very high in humidity and to bring the action back down would require the saddle to be lowered.  I myself would prefer to get a new saddle with a lower height and keep that for high humidity conditions and keep the original saddle for when the humidity is low.  Or it could be your guitar is a bit on the damp side of things.  Do you leave it out of the case much? 

It is normal for guitars wood to expand contract in their early days as they acclimatise to the new environment of the guitar.  Generally, the more expensive a guitar is the lighter built/lighter braced it is/lighter finished it will be and consequently will be more prone to environmental conditions.  All the lightly built guitars I have owned from new have required an element of great care in their early days but generally find their ways after some time. 

Do you have a humidity meter for where you keep your guitars?  The general consensus is to keep guitars between 40-70%, for 'safe' purposes.  I've found my guitars soundboards expanded at over 55% or so, definitely above 60%. 

RandallFlagg

earwighoney said:

RandallFlagg said:

6 month old Martin D28 and action is starting to creep up, it came with the factory 7/64 - 5/64ths and is now, 6 months old and Is now at 8.64ths to 5 and a half 64ths. It doesn't sound a lot but feels noticable under the fingers. All 3 acoustics I have had have the action creep up but after the initial change they seem to settle down after that. This is normal isn't it? or is anyone lucky enough to have an acoustic that kept it's action stable from new. Time to have the bridge saddle shaved, can anyone recommend a competent acoustic technicican/repairer anywhere near King's Lynn, Norfolk?

It could also be that the soundboard of your guitar has swollen slightly due to the conditions right now which are very high in humidity and to bring the action back down would require the saddle to be lowered.  I myself would prefer to get a new saddle with a lower height and keep that for high humidity conditions and keep the original saddle for when the humidity is low.  Or it could be your guitar is a bit on the damp side of things.  Do you leave it out of the case much? 

It is normal for guitars wood to expand contract in their early days as they acclimatise to the new environment of the guitar.  Generally, the more expensive a guitar is the lighter built/lighter braced it is/lighter finished it will be and consequently will be more prone to environmental conditions.  All the lightly built guitars I have owned from new have required an element of great care in their early days but generally find their ways after some time. 

Do you have a humidity meter for where you keep your guitars?  The general consensus is to keep guitars between 40-70%, for 'safe' purposes.  I've found my guitars soundboards expanded at over 55% or so, definitely above 60%.

Thanks, this makes a lot of sense. I think you're right about getting  new saddle and adjusting it to give a better action and keeping the factory fitted one in case the guitar action returns over winter.

Yes I have a hygrometer and humidity reads 43% today but goes up to 58% and has ben as low as 26% (no idea when though as I've never witnessed it that low!) Typically, the D28 is on a wall hanger in a room with no direct sunlight, and humidity is typically around 45%

I have been away overseas for 2 weeks for work and it was fine before I left but I gather there has been rain just about every day since I left so air is pretty humid.

RandallFlagg

ICBM said:

Yes, most acoustics do eventually creep up over time. The top will move, it's quite normal with humidity changes and as the wood settles down after the guitar is made.

In the very long term the angle of the neck block can change slightly too, although that will take years on a good-quality guitar - but a very small change makes a noticeable difference, and eventually the neck may need re-setting.

Bear in mind the total string tension is usually around 150lb on an acoustic with 12-gauge strings. That's an enormous amount of force for such a thin wooden shell to handle.

yes, this makes sense, it's  Martin with solid spruce top and it is thin, as expected on a high quality instrument, and it's on the wall, it's for playing and is my grab and go noodler (so is my R8 Les Paul and AV 52 Tele). I can't be arsed keep putting guitars in/out of case.

BahHumbug

As has been said, it's a new guitar, so it will be settling.....and it will move with humidity changes. I find that the action on some of my acoustics moves on an annual cycle, with humidity higher in summer and lower in winter. I tweak the truss rod if needed.

The industry try to sell us humidifiers, but I really think that that gear is mainly for the US market where the extremes of temperature and humidity are much more, er, extreme and can can produce quite gross distortion in acoustic guitar bodies.

ToneControl

biggest changes on an acoustic will be down to the top moving with humidity.

The neck will move slightly too - can be enough to need a truss rod tweak if you don't control humidity

However, the top can be damaged

Best to get a humidifier on a hygrostat

thomasross20

I'm going to get mine given the once over by somebody as I swear the action on it was a little lower prior to my recent string change. 

That, or it was previously so badly out of tune, the strings were slacker and was easier to play.

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

I'm going to get mine given the once over by somebody as I swear the action on it was a little lower prior to my recent string change. 

That, or it was previously so badly out of tune, the strings were slacker and was easier to play.

Did you use the same gauge?

Even then, different brands of the same gauge can have slightly different tension, although I wouldn't have thought it would be enough to pull the action up, you just may feel them as stiffer.

thomasross20

Same gauge (11) but different brand.. defo going to just pay to make sure it's the best it can be.

RandallFlagg

11s on an acoustic? you light weight!

thomasross20

Yeah, I know! 

I don't want hand problems in future playing gauges that are too heavy for me, though

Wolfetone

Install a Stewmac Bridge Doctor and it will be sorted. I did my Tanglewood a couple of years back and it's now as steady as a rock.

Lewy

Wolfetone said:

Install a Stewmac Bridge Doctor and it will be sorted. I did my Tanglewood a couple of years back and it's now as steady as a rock.

I wouldn't say this is an appropriate remedy for a nearly new D28. Flying braces like the Bridge Doctor are sensible for guitars where the cost of a neck reset wouldn't be worth it, but this guitar is just doing what all new Martins do. It just needs a set up, and assuming the OP is the original owner, if it requires anything more drastic it will be covered under warranty.

ICBM

Lewy said:

Wolfetone said:

Install a Stewmac Bridge Doctor and it will be sorted. I did my Tanglewood a couple of years back and it's now as steady as a rock.

I wouldn't say this is an appropriate remedy for a nearly new D28. Flying braces like the Bridge Doctor are sensible for guitars where the cost of a neck reset wouldn't be worth it, but this guitar is just doing what all new Martins do. It just needs a set up, and assuming the OP is the original owner, if it requires anything more drastic it will be covered under warranty.

I all honesty I wouldn't put one on a really good guitar anyway - to me they're exactly as you say, a sensible fix for a guitar where the proper solution isn't economical. I know they're supposed not to affect the sound, but in my experience they do - and if you think about it, how can something that makes the top more rigid relative to the endblock *not* do?

A friend of mine bought an old D-35 with one fitted - the guitar sounded tight and not really like an old Martin should. We took it off, and although the action was then uncomfortably high, the tone and volume of the guitar opened up enormously. He eventually had the neck re-set.

I would still recommend one for a cheaper guitar with top bellying problems though - the prime candidate I can think of is old Yamaha FGs, which often can't be made really playable without a neck reset and are a problem to do economically, not least because of the type of glue that was used to attach it in the first place...

Danny1969

I always been impressed by the action on Taylor acoustics, even the 12 strings play like electrics, really low action. Last week I went to one of their roadshows and was surprised to learn the necks are bolt on and simply shimmed with coded shims to get the perfect angle. If things move over time then a re shim is £150 which seems a good way of doing it 

thomasross20

Ever since I fitted that K&K and put new strings on, I've noticed the action feels high (as I mentioned before). Also.. the strings seem to be going out of tune a bit more. It's a little frustrating - it was never like this before. 

Gassage

ICBM said:

Yes, most acoustics do eventually creep up over time. The top will move, it's quite normal with humidity changes and as the wood settles down after the guitar is made.

In the very long term the angle of the neck block can change slightly too, although that will take years on a good-quality guitar - but a very small change makes a noticeable difference, and eventually the neck may need re-setting.

Bear in mind the total string tension is usually around 150lb on an acoustic with 12-gauge strings. That's an enormous amount of force for such a thin wooden shell to handle.

Put in much simpler terms:

T (Tension) = (UW x (2 x L x F)2) / 386.4

ToneControl

thomasross20 said:

Ever since I fitted that K&K and put new strings on, I've noticed the action feels high (as I mentioned before). Also.. the strings seem to be going out of tune a bit more. It's a little frustrating - it was never like this before. 

is it an undersaddle pickup?